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RE: Entwined (2012)

Based on the pictures, they did put a nice investment into the show. The new stage, set pieces, and costumes look nice. But, the entire thing looks so out of place for the interior of the Festhaus. The fabric lit with LEDs and gobos and such is very modern compared to the duller blue and gold and incandescent lighting of the Festhaus. I think it's very reflective of the park's position right now. They are trying to become more modern and relevant in a park that used to be called the Old Country.
 
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RE: Entwined (2012)

We saw them do "Pure Imagination" from Willie Wonka at the 4:30 rehearsal. Didn't recognize the other two songs we heard though.
The opening number is "Once Upon a Time" from the musical Brooklyn.

redheadtanman said:
Mix it up was like that last year too but they got it together.
...but was it really worth the wait?

Crackel said:
And the stage, is well, interesting. I mean mushrooms? How is that German?
Mushrooms are very common in German imagery: in garden sculpture, on cuckoo clocks, nutcrackers, as both hooked and clip-on German Christmas ornaments...

Skyrider said:
Oh yes please! NeverAfter in a full season show? I'm down with that.

Here's the difference from my point of view:

For me, The Neverafter was a perfect fit HOS because the original German Tales were dark, bloody and gritty - something easily forgotten in a time when sanitized Disney interpretations are much more well-known. Entwined, from everything I'm seeing and reading, isn't going in that direction, but is much more... "bubble gum." A kiddie show.
 
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RE: Entwined (2012)

My gut instinct is to hate what is happening in the Festhaus. I was at the rehearsals yesterday and while the costumes were impressive, the show seemed out of place. Maybe that's because I've seen essentially the same show in those hallowed halls since the Bergermeister (sp?) closed the show with the Budweiser song, circa... a long damn time ago.

I'll likely not be thrilled with the show, as will many of us who would like to encapsulate the park and keep it the same as it was when we fell in love with it. So, what can we do? First, we can give it a chance. Watch it with an open mind. And then, if we all hate it, we can do everything in our power to get the REAL Festhaus show back.

If we like it, then I guess we can talk about what we like most on this thread. Personally, I predict the former will happen... It's the Festhaus, not a freaking dinner theater.
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

I've only seen the pics here...and that was enough. I think I'm going to be sick... :s

They have stripped the Festhaus of the things I loved about it. And made it a gaudy-looking faux-Disneyesque version of the Candyland game.

I know people will bark at me for feeling like this, but I've been going to BGW for a LONG time. Since the DrakenFire days. This very well could mean the end of our treks all the way to Williamsburg to enjoy the things we loved about the park. One of the biggest things was the Festhaus. Kindof like our 'mecca'. You don't just mess with the Festhaus. The big ugly Cuckoo Clock was bad enough. At least that comes off in the winter. This is just something that will make me sick trying to eat unless I close my eyes. It is truly heart-breaking to see such a fine representation of Octoberfest be tossed...in favor of Candyland.

This is my personal opinion. I'm sorry that others will not agree with it...but I know it is inevitable. It is what it is. What it was is now: lost.
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

Haberdasher1973 said:
...from everything I'm seeing and reading, isn't going in that direction, but is much more... "bubble gum." A kiddie show.

Definitely aiming for a more "family" appeal with this show. FWIW, my kids loved it. Especially my 5 year old. I thought she was going to faint when she saw the costumes (in a good way;) ) It was easily the highlight of her day. We saw the 1:00 rehearsal and had to go back for the 4:30 one because she kept talking about it all day.

A major, major change nonetheless. No more "beer hall." More like the "Enchanted Forest." Jury is still out for me. I still say that you can't really render a true verdict on Oktoberfest until Verbolton is up and running. I do like the effort to expand on the Black Forest theme. Basically, the new coaster is getting a new show and a theater themed to it's background story. That's pretty cool.

IF they make consistent and liberal use of the oompah band stages and maypole to satisfy that German beer/festival need and compensate for the lack of it in the Festhaus, I think they may be able to pull off a well-rounded experience in the area. I guess time will tell...
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

flamanar said:
...gaudy-looking faux-Disneyesque version of the Candyland game.

This puts my thoughts into words perfectly.

If I try to put nostalgia aside, I think it has the potential to be a good show but they're fighting an uphill battle. The GP loved This Is Oktoberfest.
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

My view is Festhaus=beer hall. It's obvious that the Festhaus in BGW was built to replicate the German celebration of Oktoberfest. Not a place for entertainment for the young kids....EVEN THOUGH they always had the kids doing the chicken dance, and would always dance with kids around the stage as part of the show. My kids LOVED the Festhaus. Even when they were little.

Ever since Sesame Street, are they going to be rehabbing the park into a younger kid themepark?? What about the adults? We go there, too! So they move us outside, in between a couple stores, off the beaten track?! And they'll probably still have the bar and whatnot in the Festhaus. Man, someone needs to be taken out back and fed to the wolves (pun intended)!

I'm glad it's appealing to little kids. That's encouraging. But they already have an area which is completely dedicated to littler kids. Elmos area. And the Globe Theater!

They are moving away from having a happy medium for kids, teens AND adults. My kids are growing up. Even if they were still young enough to enjoy the show, I mean Jeez Louise... They have the huge Cuckoo Clock now for young kids. They got the kiddie show in Ireland for Illuminights. What's next??

Not meaning to disrespect anybody here. Everyone will take away something different from this new show. I'm sorry to say that I no longer have any interest in the most beloved part of the park for me and my family for a decade or two now.

When my parents first went to BGW with us, they (of course) complained that Disney was so much 'better'. I told them "you CANNOT compare BGW with Disney. They're completely different ideas/concepts". Unfortunately, it looks like BGW wants to be MORE like Disney. Any place that tries to do such a thing (IMHO) is destined to fail. Miserably. Like the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke.......". BGW continues to receive VERY high marks year after year. Why try to re-invent the wheel when you're probably as close to being on top (without being directly connected to WDW) as is humanly possible?! It's just amazing to me that they are shedding what they apparently perceive as 'old'...in favor of something that they think looks 'new'. The 'old' was awesome. Spicing/sprucing it up a bit from time to time is absolutely appropriate and necessary, I think. It's to be expected. By the same token, to take a proven (always highly-rated) and beloved thing....and change it just because it's considered 'old' or 'outdated'....and radically change it into something that is completely out-of-place, while eliminating or re-locating to the outdoors something that was amazingly authentic and which was performed in a building which was made specifically for it...boggles the imagination. /end of rant/

Sigh. Sorry for venting, but I'm just very passionate about my feelings for the Festhaus and the show. It was always the most important (stationary) part of the park for us. It made us feel like we were part of Oktoberfest. It was a celebration. A place of cheer. As corny as it sounds, I will miss it dearly. Just as my heart ached at the closing of the Big Bad Wolf. Maybe I'm just getting too old...

Again: I mean no disrespect to anyone else for how they feel about the new show.
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

I saw the 4:30 dress rehearsal as well on Saturday. I should start off by saying that I have a minor in theather, and I have worked in lighting and sound for both college and professional productions.

They did not show us anything close to a complete show. All productions have a period of about two weeks where they run through different parts repeatedly to pull everything together and tweak it until it's just right. I assure you that it's mostly done, the singers know the songs, and the dancers know the coregraphy. While minor changes could be made, sound and lighting adjustments are mostly what is going on now. The directors and designers are there to make such changes. The cues are all being programmed into the computers so they can easily be repeated the exact same way for each performance.

It is a big change for the park, and I see a definite trend towards a newer and more modern feel. I also see a greater appeal to children and families. However, it's only fair that we wait to see the completed show until we pass judgement.

Many of us don't want things to change, but the reality is that any park must evolve and improve to attract new customers and bring back old ones. No one wants to see the same old thing over and over as it slowly gets run down over the years. I'm happy to see the part re-invent itself with new ideas and invest in the future.
 
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RE: Entwined (2012)

DJTLG said:
However, it's only fair that we wait to see the completed show until we pass judgement.

You're totally right! I mean, it's the "Verbolten Will Be A Terrible Ride--Judged October 2011" case all over again!
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

Ever since Sesame Street, are they going to be rehabbing the park into a younger kid themepark?? What about the adults? We go there, too! So they move us outside, in between a couple stores, off the beaten track?! And they'll probably still have the bar and whatnot in the Festhaus. Man, someone needs to be taken out back and fed to the wolves (pun intended)!

Because a multi-launch coaster and a 240 foot tall drop tower are totally childrens rides. ;)

They are moving away from having a happy medium for kids, teens AND adults. My kids are growing up. Even if they were still young enough to enjoy the show, I mean Jeez Louise... They have the huge Cuckoo Clock now for young kids. They got the kiddie show in Ireland for Illuminights. What's next??

As much as I hate the cuckoo clock, there's always been a kiddie show in Ireland. Plus, I rather liked Legend of Killarney as much as I enjoyed Castle O Sullivan.

When my parents first went to BGW with us, they (of course) complained that Disney was so much 'better'. I told them "you CANNOT compare BGW with Disney. They're completely different ideas/concepts". Unfortunately, it looks like BGW wants to be MORE like Disney. Any place that tries to do such a thing (IMHO) is destined to fail.

There's nothing wrong with competing with the best in the industry. Universal's done it. That's how the SF chain was born. BEC and Herschend strive to capture the audience that Disney's been so successful at drawing in. Plenty of theme parks have elements of Disney in them. Why's that? Because Disney is the pinnacle and if you want to succeed, you have to aim for that.

BGW is trying to attract a FAMILY audience and this show looks like it could do that the same way This Is Oktoberfest attracted families in the past. on another note, the park has to change with the times or else it will seem old and dated. There are still some classic elements... Loch Ness and the flume are still running, the park has retained many theme elements, cruise/train/Skyride are still traveling all over the park, but those elements are mixed with newer rides and shows. As much as I miss Le Mans and Wolf (not too partial about the Oktoberfest show though), I feel the park should make changes every once in a while to keep things fresh.

On another note, the park still has plenty of things for teens and adults to do. There's 5 roller coasters, 3 water rides, fun flat rides, and shows to see and still be able to sit down and catch your breath.

Off topic rant time... Am I the only person that likes the Sesame Street area? It looks nice and colorful, plus Elmo isn't thrown in your face everywhere. There are still elements of Europe in the area, it's just presented differently. Hell I'm surprised Busch didn't do something like that years ago instead of leaving the old petting zoo area empty like that. As long as they play classic Sesame Street tunes, I'm perfectly fine with the area. /off topic.

Back on topic. I'd really say give the show a chance before bashing it. Dress rehearsals are just that, practice. The show clearly isn't perfect yet. I'm sure once the show breaks in and gets comfy, it'll be something nice to sit and watch while eating.
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

My main concern is that people might react more negatively to Fiends. Going from something like Entwined to Fiends might cause a more volatile reaction from the GP. That being said, I think Entwined would be great for the Globe.
 
RE: Entwined (2012)

netdvn said:
Ever since Sesame Street, are they going to be rehabbing the park into a younger kid themepark?? What about the adults? We go there, too! So they move us outside, in between a couple stores, off the beaten track?! And they'll probably still have the bar and whatnot in the Festhaus. Man, someone needs to be taken out back and fed to the wolves (pun intended)!

Because a multi-launch coaster and a 240 foot tall drop tower are totally childrens rides. ;)

They are moving away from having a happy medium for kids, teens AND adults. My kids are growing up. Even if they were still young enough to enjoy the show, I mean Jeez Louise... They have the huge Cuckoo Clock now for young kids. They got the kiddie show in Ireland for Illuminights. What's next??

As much as I hate the cuckoo clock, there's always been a kiddie show in Ireland. Plus, I rather liked Legend of Killarney as much as I enjoyed Castle O Sullivan.

When my parents first went to BGW with us, they (of course) complained that Disney was so much 'better'. I told them "you CANNOT compare BGW with Disney. They're completely different ideas/concepts". Unfortunately, it looks like BGW wants to be MORE like Disney. Any place that tries to do such a thing (IMHO) is destined to fail.

There's nothing wrong with competing with the best in the industry. Universal's done it. That's how the SF chain was born. BEC and Herschend strive to capture the audience that Disney's been so successful at drawing in. Plenty of theme parks have elements of Disney in them. Why's that? Because Disney is the pinnacle and if you want to succeed, you have to aim for that.

BGW is trying to attract a FAMILY audience and this show looks like it could do that the same way This Is Oktoberfest attracted families in the past. on another note, the park has to change with the times or else it will seem old and dated. There are still some classic elements... Loch Ness and the flume are still running, the park has retained many theme elements, cruise/train/Skyride are still traveling all over the park, but those elements are mixed with newer rides and shows. As much as I miss Le Mans and Wolf (not too partial about the Oktoberfest show though), I feel the park should make changes every once in a while to keep things fresh.

On another note, the park still has plenty of things for teens and adults to do. There's 5 roller coasters, 3 water rides, fun flat rides, and shows to see and still be able to sit down and catch your breath.

Off topic rant time... Am I the only person that likes the Sesame Street area? It looks nice and colorful, plus Elmo isn't thrown in your face everywhere. There are still elements of Europe in the area, it's just presented differently. Hell I'm surprised Busch didn't do something like that years ago instead of leaving the old petting zoo area empty like that. As long as they play classic Sesame Street tunes, I'm perfectly fine with the area. /off topic.

Back on topic. I'd really say give the show a chance before bashing it. Dress rehearsals are just that, practice. The show clearly isn't perfect yet. I'm sure once the show breaks in and gets comfy, it'll be something nice to sit and watch while eating.

We do have some agreement here. I did say in my post the following: "Spicing/sprucing it up a bit from time to time is absolutely appropriate and necessary, I think. It's to be expected." However, I think radical and close-together changes are NOT to be expected...and can be very risky for the park. Again: Festhaus=beer hall. Roller coasters are definitely not the kiddie rides. However, when the teens have ridden the coasters...then what? Concerning Disney, BGW did amazing all these years...without having to disturb the ground that Disney walks on. For instance: the small-car market. Why try to enter a market that is already filled to the brim with competition?? Busch has always managed to pull a hat-trick without resorting to competing with Disney. What I'm saying is that trying to compete with Disney...by trying to be LIKE Disney...will put people in the position of rating the park based on their Disney experience. Disney will almost always blow direct competition out of the water (hey....they're DISNEY....they can do it! lol :) ). Personally, I liked Mach Tower, but I can't ride it because it hurt me to ride it. No, I'm not a huge person. I'm 6', average build, average weight. Still, the shoulder molds pushed my shoulders forward into the harness (WAY uncomfortable). Also, the seat mold has the upright piece on the front of the seat....erm....punishing my 'personal bits' (I'm being kind). Fortunately, we're not having more kids anyways...so no harm, no fowl :p However, I will NEVER ride it again. I have no idea who they molded those seats after...but they must be much smaller in shape and form than the typical US male/female. LOL!

I didn't know there was a dust-up for Verbolten. I'm excited about it (apprehensive about if the 'rush' for the Rhine drop will be as great as the Wolf, but I will hold judgment on that till I ride it).

Sesame Street area: sigh. I didn't like it. Even before they built it. It didn't fit in with the rest of the TRADITIONAL LOOKING England area (empashis on those words, because I think that is what brings alot of people to BGW: authenticity). My Sesame Street days were over long ago, and my kids wouldn't be caught dead in there. lol. 'Nuff said.

Again, I'm in favor for GRADUAL and UNOBTRUSIVE changes to BGW. I'm not a fan for 'overhauls' or 'metamorphosis' of current structures. Busch is losing what I (speaking for myself) loved about the park. Beauty. Authenticity. WITHOUT resulting to the 'gaudy', 'loud' techniques used in other (lesser) parks. AFAIK, only Disney can do that right...and it typically ties in with one of their movies. Impossible for them to mess up most things.

It's a shame the show in the Festhaus is themed after the coaster. Like someone else said, it would probably be a MOST welcomed venue for the Globe Theater, instead. Building a coaster AND making a themed show related it is almost double-risky. If the coaster fails to thrill, will the show fail? Or vice-versa?? Impossible to say until they've both been 'tested' on the general public.

Btw: my issue hasn't even addressed the show inside the Festhaus. The theming and changed elements inside the building were bad enough. By themselves.

Let's hope that I'm seriously wrong on all accounts. I've been a BGW supporter for MANY years. I'd hate to feel like stopping now.
 
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RE: Entwined (2012)

^The difference here is that Disney has thus far been smart enough to keep a live oom-pah band in their Biergarten.

"This is Oktoberfest" is BGW's equivalent to SeaWorld's Shamu show: not everyone is a fan, but its a staple - a staple which, I suspect, a much higher percentage of guests expect/want to see than not...
 
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)

Okay, so after reading the mixed reviews on the show and seeing the inside of the Festhaus myself, and seeing dress rehearsals of shows past before, I would like to add my little bit of input.

So, of course the show will not look complete. I am a theater lover and work on shows at my school often. Now, yes I will compare a professional show to a school show because as unprofessional a school show may be my theater teacher is/was a/n actor in many different venues across the country. He has been doing professional theater himself, a very long time and when we go to produce our school's spring musical, he makes a very good and easy flowing schedule. Usually, the cast and crew have exactly one week if not less than that to actually work together and pull the show together. Before those two weeks, it is nothing more than boring, "go here, go there" blocking, getting lines and positions memorized, and working on character. There honestly is nothing to it other than work on the parts that need working on then add it all together in the last week or two. With that said, I also got to see Rejoice during a dress rehearsal. They mentioned that they may stop and would try to get through the whole day. Remember this was just like 3 - 1 day(s) before the opening of Christmas Town and they went through the entire show perfectly, except the last song, a technical issue occurred. Plus, they had just added video to the show that week. So from my experience in theater, the performers know what they are doing, it is just adding all the pieces together that may make the show seem boring, or flawed in every aspect. Wait to fully critic the actual full show in a week or two.

Next, I honestly didn't care for This Is Oktoberfest at all. It never seemed like a major show at all. Every time I went into the Festhaus, the place was never packed with crowds for the show, most people were eating and there was tons of empty space. I had always thought of the shows in the Abbeystone Theater to be major highlight shows, as well as the Royal Palace Theater shows. Like I said, it was so minuscule to me that I never made time for it and to be honest, the gap between 13 and 18 maybe a few more years older, probably could care less about the show because it was either for the really young kids to be entertained or for the older adults who enjoy a classic German theme. Noe It looks like that has decided to change the target audience to younger children to entertain, a teenage/young adult group to interest in the modern setup and some aspects of the show. It also seems they wanted to incorporate the entire "Black Forest" theme to Oktoberfest, which of course changing a theme dramatically can be extremely risky, but will probably prove more successful than what some may want, just because they are so used to a traditional show they don't see any reason to change, when really a young generation really is not interested in tradition and even as they grow older into adults they will not be interested in tradition that much. This is just a pivotal point in the parks history in which they switch their aim from one target audience to another; from the older traditional liking's of adults to a new upcoming generation of kids/adults that are more open to modern and nontraditional things.

I will be more than happy to post a more comprehensive decision about this show when I see it this Thursday, but I will still reserve the right to change my thoughts until I see it after Saturday sometime, when ever I get the chance. I seriously think this show has potential and that people are seriously doubting the park in a time where the park can go either up or down. All I can say to that is have faith in a park that is trying to survive in a modern time. Things are changing and becoming more technologically advanced, and just like how the older adults may be technologically impaired to cell phones and iPads, that is our future and we must accept as a society we will be growing more modern to improve our life style even though you may not be used to it.

I put much more thought into this post than usual, so you guys better read it completely! Thanks :)
 
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)

flamanar said:
We do have some agreement here. I did say in my post the following: "Spicing/sprucing it up a bit from time to time is absolutely appropriate and necessary, I think. It's to be expected." However, I think radical and close-together changes are NOT to be expected...and can be very risky for the park. Again: Festhaus=beer hall. Roller coasters are definitely not the kiddie rides. However, when the teens have ridden the coasters...then what? Concerning Disney, BGW did amazing all these years...without having to disturb the ground that Disney walks on. For instance: the small-car market. Why try to enter a market that is already filled to the brim with competition?? Busch has always managed to pull a hat-trick without resorting to competing with Disney. What I'm saying is that trying to compete with Disney...by trying to be LIKE Disney...will put people in the position of rating the park based on their Disney experience. Disney will almost always blow direct competition out of the water (hey....they're DISNEY....they can do it! lol :) ). Personally, I liked Mach Tower, but I can't ride it because it hurt me to ride it. No, I'm not a huge person. I'm 6', average build, average weight. Still, the shoulder molds pushed my shoulders forward into the harness (WAY uncomfortable). Also, the seat mold has the upright piece on the front of the seat....erm....punishing my 'personal bits' (I'm being kind). Fortunately, we're not having more kids anyways...so no harm, no fowl :p However, I will NEVER ride it again. I have no idea who they molded those seats after...but they must be much smaller in shape and form than the typical US male/female. LOL!

I didn't know there was a dust-up for Verbolten. I'm excited about it (apprehensive about if the 'rush' for the Rhine drop will be as great as the Wolf, but I will hold judgment on that till I ride it).

Sesame Street area: sigh. I didn't like it. Even before they built it. It didn't fit in with the rest of the TRADITIONAL LOOKING England area (empashis on those words, because I think that is what brings alot of people to BGW: authenticity). My Sesame Street days were over long ago, and my kids wouldn't be caught dead in there. lol. 'Nuff said.

Again, I'm in favor for GRADUAL and UNOBTRUSIVE changes to BGW. I'm not a fan for 'overhauls' or 'metamorphosis' of current structures. Busch is losing what I (speaking for myself) loved about the park. Beauty. Authenticity. WITHOUT resulting to the 'gaudy', 'loud' techniques used in other (lesser) parks. AFAIK, only Disney can do that right...and it typically ties in with one of their movies. Impossible for them to mess up most things.

It's a shame the show in the Festhaus is themed after the coaster. Like someone else said, it would probably be a MOST welcomed venue for the Globe Theater, instead. Building a coaster AND making a themed show related it is almost double-risky. If the coaster fails to thrill, will the show fail? Or vice-versa?? Impossible to say until they've both been 'tested' on the general public.

Btw: my issue hasn't even addressed the show inside the Festhaus. The theming and changed elements inside the building were bad enough. By themselves.

Let's hope that I'm seriously wrong on all accounts. I've been a BGW supporter for MANY years. I'd hate to feel like stopping now.

Mach Tower is uncomfortable. Nuff said. Still it's a good ride and something the park needed.

On the teens statement... When Loch Ness opened in 1978, what else did the park have to offer for teens? The park still had the log flume, and the flats plus shows right? How much has that offering expanded since 1978? Even compared to KD (which at the time had two-three major coasters, a safari, and probably more rides than BGW and has definitely expanded since then) it still seems lacking.

A lot of parks try to be like Disney for a good reason. If Busch didn't try to be like Disney, it would look like a carnival. You wouldn't have the authentic-looking buildings or the theme music playing throughout the park. The coasters and rides would just be plopped down without care for theming/atmosphere. I haven't seen the stage in person, but I do like the costumes (orange one looks like a Chocolate Orange though).

Sesame Street, you and your kids may have outgrown it, but plenty of families with children still visit the park and enjoy it. It's not geared towards you because it's not supposed to be. Does it fit in with the traditional European architecture? No, but then again, Festa doesn't really fit in with the park (what is that area themed to anyway), and New France isn't even part of Europe.

Back to the show...

The show isn't really themed to the coaster. The themes are tied together, but the show focuses more on Grimm's fairy tales while the ride focuses more on the Black Forest. The main similarity is that the show seems to be a bit darker than the previous one. Both can stand on their own. Not sure if this show would fit in the Globe, considering it's based on German fairy tales. I already suggested moving Fiends there and keeping Entwined in Germany during the HOS season.

I do like the costumes and only caught glimpses of the stage in person. From pictures, it looks OK. I'm not really sure what to think right now. I'm waiting for the show to kick off before I place judgement. The story seems very promising though.

Speaking of beer tents, has anyone done an authentic Oktoberfest beer tent before? How does it compare to BGW's?
 
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