RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
To be fair, hasn't it only been one show?
(I kid)
Haberdasher1973 said:
To be fair, hasn't it only been one show?
(I kid)
Entwined: Tales of Good & Grimm
- Thread starter Griffon
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RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Although you're kidding, I'll give you a serious answer because I think it's often overlooked: yes and no.
Like the spirit of the hall itself, the show changed over time in minor ways: dialogue, choreography, which songs were performed, etc. With these changes, the name of the show changed to reflect it's evolution. An '86 postcard refers to the show as the Schuhplattler Dancers, '87 it was simply the "Festhaus Musicians and Performers," I can't find the brochure, but for at least one year it was called "Polkamania," and '97 seems to mark the start of "This is Oktoberfest's" uber-long run.
Essentially, yes - it was the same type of show since '76. Since around '97 it was the same show, at least in name.
PzP said:To be fair, hasn't it only been one show?
(I kid)
Although you're kidding, I'll give you a serious answer because I think it's often overlooked: yes and no.
Like the spirit of the hall itself, the show changed over time in minor ways: dialogue, choreography, which songs were performed, etc. With these changes, the name of the show changed to reflect it's evolution. An '86 postcard refers to the show as the Schuhplattler Dancers, '87 it was simply the "Festhaus Musicians and Performers," I can't find the brochure, but for at least one year it was called "Polkamania," and '97 seems to mark the start of "This is Oktoberfest's" uber-long run.
Essentially, yes - it was the same type of show since '76. Since around '97 it was the same show, at least in name.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Haberdasher - That's the exact kind of rudeness I was talking about. I've never once been rude to you and I don't appreciate that tone. That's the kind of put down that new people/guests see and associate our forum with being inaccessible.
What I'm saying is that "This is Octoberfest" was really not so great. In fact, my friends and I would leave because of how awkward it was. All I'm saying is that let's not forget that though this may be new, and different, it will appeal to families as something cute and fun and possibly attract people to the show. Can any of you honestly say that you looked at showtimes for "This is Octoberfest" as a deciding factor for when you ate?
This is a production. It's new. People will come to see it. The kinks will get worked out. It will be fine.
Haberdasher - That's the exact kind of rudeness I was talking about. I've never once been rude to you and I don't appreciate that tone. That's the kind of put down that new people/guests see and associate our forum with being inaccessible.
What I'm saying is that "This is Octoberfest" was really not so great. In fact, my friends and I would leave because of how awkward it was. All I'm saying is that let's not forget that though this may be new, and different, it will appeal to families as something cute and fun and possibly attract people to the show. Can any of you honestly say that you looked at showtimes for "This is Octoberfest" as a deciding factor for when you ate?
This is a production. It's new. People will come to see it. The kinks will get worked out. It will be fine.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Carter, don't take this as everyone ganging up on you.... but the show just doesn't fit. I'm all for change, but why change a (replica if you must) beer hall into a fairy land? It just doesn't work. Yes there are kinks, but at the end of the day, even when those are fixed the show won't fit. There a few other stages where this show could have gone if it just had to happen. My main question is, what happened to "roll out the barrel"? That sounds like a perfect replacement for TIO. I believe that is the main concern at hand here.
Carter, don't take this as everyone ganging up on you.... but the show just doesn't fit. I'm all for change, but why change a (replica if you must) beer hall into a fairy land? It just doesn't work. Yes there are kinks, but at the end of the day, even when those are fixed the show won't fit. There a few other stages where this show could have gone if it just had to happen. My main question is, what happened to "roll out the barrel"? That sounds like a perfect replacement for TIO. I believe that is the main concern at hand here.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
I don't feel ganged up on Aoen haha. I'm a grown man with no issue being in the minority opinion. What I have an issue with is rudeness towards minority opinions. I was just in another thread discussing the exact nature of Haberdasher's latest comment to me when he sarcastically called me "an expert" and, i'm assuming, rolled his eyes, crossed his legs, and twiddled his thumbs. THAT sort of comment has no place on this forum and the point I've been trying to make is that we're all a little too comfortable putting people down in an arrogant, sarcastic, and unfriendly way.
Back on topic: I guess we'll see how popular this is over time. Personally though, I'm pretty sure I can enjoy just about anything more than the awkward and generally unrelatable "This is Octoberfest"
I don't feel ganged up on Aoen haha. I'm a grown man with no issue being in the minority opinion. What I have an issue with is rudeness towards minority opinions. I was just in another thread discussing the exact nature of Haberdasher's latest comment to me when he sarcastically called me "an expert" and, i'm assuming, rolled his eyes, crossed his legs, and twiddled his thumbs. THAT sort of comment has no place on this forum and the point I've been trying to make is that we're all a little too comfortable putting people down in an arrogant, sarcastic, and unfriendly way.
Back on topic: I guess we'll see how popular this is over time. Personally though, I'm pretty sure I can enjoy just about anything more than the awkward and generally unrelatable "This is Octoberfest"
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Entwined fits the German theme. Beer hall or not, the Festhaus is also a theater. Last time I checked since when was American Juxebox Canadian? Yet people still loved it. Over time Entwined will be enjoyed by more people. Change can be a scary thing, but after awhile we get used to it. Personally, it could be worse. At least the show has a German theme.
I am all with Carter.
Entwined fits the German theme. Beer hall or not, the Festhaus is also a theater. Last time I checked since when was American Juxebox Canadian? Yet people still loved it. Over time Entwined will be enjoyed by more people. Change can be a scary thing, but after awhile we get used to it. Personally, it could be worse. At least the show has a German theme.
I am all with Carter.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
This "you guys are averse to change" thing is getting old. I, speaking personally, have absolutely nothing against change. I don't know how much more clearly this can be said.
The way I see it, Entwined has four issues:
1) Is the theme European enough for the park? I say it is.
2) Is the theme German enough for the hamlet? I say it is.
3) Is the show appropriate for the venue? I say it's not. The venue could have gotten a better replacement for TIO, (and be sure to read this part) still run Entwined in a different venue.
4) Is the show too kiddie? I say yes for the venue it is in, no in general. The largest "dinner theater" in the park should probably host a show that is for a very wide range of park goers. It does not make sense, to me, to put an age-group specific program into a venue that has a 40 year history of hosting all-ages fare. It's a misuse of a very good space. That's it.
I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why this is such an offensive assessment to some people.
This "you guys are averse to change" thing is getting old. I, speaking personally, have absolutely nothing against change. I don't know how much more clearly this can be said.
The way I see it, Entwined has four issues:
1) Is the theme European enough for the park? I say it is.
2) Is the theme German enough for the hamlet? I say it is.
3) Is the show appropriate for the venue? I say it's not. The venue could have gotten a better replacement for TIO, (and be sure to read this part) still run Entwined in a different venue.
4) Is the show too kiddie? I say yes for the venue it is in, no in general. The largest "dinner theater" in the park should probably host a show that is for a very wide range of park goers. It does not make sense, to me, to put an age-group specific program into a venue that has a 40 year history of hosting all-ages fare. It's a misuse of a very good space. That's it.
I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why this is such an offensive assessment to some people.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
EDIT: Dr. Money beat me. I basically agree with him 100%
I honesty wouldn't classify Das Festhaus as a theater.
Theater: A building, room, or outdoor structure for the presentation of plays, films, or other dramatic performances
In my mind it's primarily an eatery that happens to have a stage in the middle. I don't really want a fancy production going on as I'm eating. This Is Oktoberfest was great because it didn't have a story you felt like you needed to follow, the lighting wasn't changed so you could see your food, and you felt like you could talk to each other during the show. The show provided atmosphere and didn't "force" you to watch it as you were eating. Shows like Entwined belong in France, England, and Ireland.
EDIT: Dr. Money beat me. I basically agree with him 100%
I honesty wouldn't classify Das Festhaus as a theater.
Theater: A building, room, or outdoor structure for the presentation of plays, films, or other dramatic performances
In my mind it's primarily an eatery that happens to have a stage in the middle. I don't really want a fancy production going on as I'm eating. This Is Oktoberfest was great because it didn't have a story you felt like you needed to follow, the lighting wasn't changed so you could see your food, and you felt like you could talk to each other during the show. The show provided atmosphere and didn't "force" you to watch it as you were eating. Shows like Entwined belong in France, England, and Ireland.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Carter, this is almost verbatim to a post that I made earlier. However, I did not at all feel that anyone was being rude or attacking me because my opinion was in the minority. I also did not take the opportunity to hector those who disagreed with me about their attitude and maturity level.
Me neither. But it has the potential to be a great theater. I'm almost certain this was the opinion of the entertainment department regarding the changes.
CarterGee said:
Carter, this is almost verbatim to a post that I made earlier. However, I did not at all feel that anyone was being rude or attacking me because my opinion was in the minority. I also did not take the opportunity to hector those who disagreed with me about their attitude and maturity level.
Swiftman said:
Me neither. But it has the potential to be a great theater. I'm almost certain this was the opinion of the entertainment department regarding the changes.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
The problem I see with turning it into a theater is that even though it's the largest eatery in the park, it's also typically the most PACKED eatery in the park. If you have people engrossed in watching a 20-30 minute show instead of eating...people will be standing in line outside just to get in. Unhappy/hot/hungry people=unhappy patrons. Also, it's hard enough to navigate the aisles of the Festhaus when the lights are ON. When they're dim...well, I'm imaging people falling over kids in strollers and other such liability scenaries.
I can't see them having an attention-grabber show in the Festhaus unless they expand it.
I seriously can't see why they sank so much money into something that wasn't broken in the first place. Makes. No. Sense. The stage was fine...in fact it was incredibly unique. All the Festhaus needed was an updated GERMAN show. Unfortunately, now it IS broken.
EDIT: and user 'mdb07', great letter. You speak for me and my family, too.
Shafor said:
The problem I see with turning it into a theater is that even though it's the largest eatery in the park, it's also typically the most PACKED eatery in the park. If you have people engrossed in watching a 20-30 minute show instead of eating...people will be standing in line outside just to get in. Unhappy/hot/hungry people=unhappy patrons. Also, it's hard enough to navigate the aisles of the Festhaus when the lights are ON. When they're dim...well, I'm imaging people falling over kids in strollers and other such liability scenaries.
I can't see them having an attention-grabber show in the Festhaus unless they expand it.
I seriously can't see why they sank so much money into something that wasn't broken in the first place. Makes. No. Sense. The stage was fine...in fact it was incredibly unique. All the Festhaus needed was an updated GERMAN show. Unfortunately, now it IS broken.
EDIT: and user 'mdb07', great letter. You speak for me and my family, too.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Festhaus has always been a multi-use facility. Putting Entwind in isn't such a radical departure.
Festhaus has always been a multi-use facility. Putting Entwind in isn't such a radical departure.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
I had mentioned the new "ambient" music played as the Festhaus this year. I held my phone up as high as I could to the speakers yesterday to catch some of it. It was pretty dead in there at the time. Of course as soon as I stopped recording, it kicked over to some of oompah-ish music and I couldn't get my video back up fast enough to catch it.
But anyway, this should give you a taste of the new atmosphere if you haven't already experienced it.
http://youtu.be/xUFa8LzPr1w
I would say this is a good point, but I'll throw in an X factor. It's the most packed eatery in the park at peak eating hours. If you go in from 12-1 or 5-6, you can barely move. Show or no show. Yesterday the park was very crowded. Long lines for everything. But when I went in the Festhaus at around 4 (when I recorded the above video), it was dead. (Like tumbleweed blowing through the place dead.) I always tell people to make sure they eat at an odd time. Everyone in the park always eats AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. Crazy.
Anyway, having a show spread out throughout the day, may in fact encourage people to eat at an odd time (to match up with the show) and get some butts on the benches that wouldn't have been there otherwise, buying beer, or a snack, or something from the gift shop, etc.
Just something to consider.
I had mentioned the new "ambient" music played as the Festhaus this year. I held my phone up as high as I could to the speakers yesterday to catch some of it. It was pretty dead in there at the time. Of course as soon as I stopped recording, it kicked over to some of oompah-ish music and I couldn't get my video back up fast enough to catch it.
But anyway, this should give you a taste of the new atmosphere if you haven't already experienced it.
http://youtu.be/xUFa8LzPr1w
flamanar said:
I would say this is a good point, but I'll throw in an X factor. It's the most packed eatery in the park at peak eating hours. If you go in from 12-1 or 5-6, you can barely move. Show or no show. Yesterday the park was very crowded. Long lines for everything. But when I went in the Festhaus at around 4 (when I recorded the above video), it was dead. (Like tumbleweed blowing through the place dead.) I always tell people to make sure they eat at an odd time. Everyone in the park always eats AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. Crazy.
Anyway, having a show spread out throughout the day, may in fact encourage people to eat at an odd time (to match up with the show) and get some butts on the benches that wouldn't have been there otherwise, buying beer, or a snack, or something from the gift shop, etc.
Just something to consider.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
I hope it does...just wondering how long it will take. We went this past Thursday, I have two kids, 7 and 4. Within 10 minutes of the show starting they were ready to leave and I was right with them. The show just does nothing to capture your attention, kids or adults, really, whether it is effects(I realize it can't be broadway level) or the music/singing or costumes.
On the subject of the music and singing, I personally thought it was well below average even. Nothing catchy about it at all.
The concept has potential and when we first walked in and saw the new stage and the side houses I had high hopes. But once it started we were very let down.
Now I will admit we need to go back and watch it to the end before we decide it's absolutely no good. But initially we were not impressed at all.
CarterGee said:
I hope it does...just wondering how long it will take. We went this past Thursday, I have two kids, 7 and 4. Within 10 minutes of the show starting they were ready to leave and I was right with them. The show just does nothing to capture your attention, kids or adults, really, whether it is effects(I realize it can't be broadway level) or the music/singing or costumes.
On the subject of the music and singing, I personally thought it was well below average even. Nothing catchy about it at all.
The concept has potential and when we first walked in and saw the new stage and the side houses I had high hopes. But once it started we were very let down.
Now I will admit we need to go back and watch it to the end before we decide it's absolutely no good. But initially we were not impressed at all.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
On a side note, regarding the theatrical fog in use there, the witch's house on the side on the venue next to Feshaus Kaffee has a chimney with a continuous flow of smoke (fog) coming out of it. It's runs all day. My eagle-eyed son pointed that out to me a while ago.
On a side note, regarding the theatrical fog in use there, the witch's house on the side on the venue next to Feshaus Kaffee has a chimney with a continuous flow of smoke (fog) coming out of it. It's runs all day. My eagle-eyed son pointed that out to me a while ago.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Flamanar, entwined is made up of GERMAN fairy tales making it a GERMAN show.
The real issues is what should be in the Festhaus, a themed dinner theater restaurant.
To be honest, TIO was old, I never found any interest in the show personally, as a kid, or as now. Entwined does capture kids attention, not every kid is the same and just like how some kids can handle the scare of HOS an some can't, some will love entwined and some won't.
Give it a season or two, the GP will learn to love it and everyone else will learn to at least live with it like EITA and other mistakes the park supposedly made.
Flamanar, entwined is made up of GERMAN fairy tales making it a GERMAN show.
The real issues is what should be in the Festhaus, a themed dinner theater restaurant.
To be honest, TIO was old, I never found any interest in the show personally, as a kid, or as now. Entwined does capture kids attention, not every kid is the same and just like how some kids can handle the scare of HOS an some can't, some will love entwined and some won't.
Give it a season or two, the GP will learn to love it and everyone else will learn to at least live with it like EITA and other mistakes the park supposedly made.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Kind of. Actually almost all popularly recognized fairy tales, including most of the ones in the show, were written by Charles Perrault who was French.
The Brothers Grimm were just two of many writers throughout Europe to adapt Perrault's stories. Really, a fairy tale show could have been just as appropriately themed in France or England.
Party Rocker said:
Kind of. Actually almost all popularly recognized fairy tales, including most of the ones in the show, were written by Charles Perrault who was French.
The Brothers Grimm were just two of many writers throughout Europe to adapt Perrault's stories. Really, a fairy tale show could have been just as appropriately themed in France or England.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
This is the kind of stuff I really don't like. When you say things like this, you completely discredit everyone who has legit complaints by basically dismissing their arguments as trivial. You act like there is absolutely no chance that Entwined (or any other change) is just a bad idea.
The reality is that there is no guarantee that the GP will learn to love it. There have been dozens of things over the years that were rejected by the audience and removed. And besides which, why should the audience be asked to "learn to love" anything? Most people go once or twice a year. They should love whatever it is instantly, and be able to enjoy it immediately upon consumption.
I'm going to put out this rule of thumb: if 80% of the audience doesn't love it, first time out, right out of the gate, then it's a bad change. Try something else.
Party Rocker said:
This is the kind of stuff I really don't like. When you say things like this, you completely discredit everyone who has legit complaints by basically dismissing their arguments as trivial. You act like there is absolutely no chance that Entwined (or any other change) is just a bad idea.
The reality is that there is no guarantee that the GP will learn to love it. There have been dozens of things over the years that were rejected by the audience and removed. And besides which, why should the audience be asked to "learn to love" anything? Most people go once or twice a year. They should love whatever it is instantly, and be able to enjoy it immediately upon consumption.
I'm going to put out this rule of thumb: if 80% of the audience doesn't love it, first time out, right out of the gate, then it's a bad change. Try something else.
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Never said it was a bad idea, but like other things, people are more than likely to just get used to it. They may not be obsessed with it, and it may be a terrible idea, but it will be just like TIO. People who will see no value in it won't plan their day around it yet, those who do like it will say it is an awesome never need to be replaced thing.
I personally loved EITA, then the love just died down some and I find it a good ride. Was it a bad idea, perhaps, but it still draws people and there is a good handful that love it. Remember all the complaints when it first opened? See how people deal with it now? I imagine Entwined to be similar. People are going to ask for its removal but in the end it will stay for a few seasons at least, and people will still be unpleased with it, but they will find it to be "whatever".
DrMoneyHATESBuschGardens said:
Never said it was a bad idea, but like other things, people are more than likely to just get used to it. They may not be obsessed with it, and it may be a terrible idea, but it will be just like TIO. People who will see no value in it won't plan their day around it yet, those who do like it will say it is an awesome never need to be replaced thing.
I personally loved EITA, then the love just died down some and I find it a good ride. Was it a bad idea, perhaps, but it still draws people and there is a good handful that love it. Remember all the complaints when it first opened? See how people deal with it now? I imagine Entwined to be similar. People are going to ask for its removal but in the end it will stay for a few seasons at least, and people will still be unpleased with it, but they will find it to be "whatever".
RE: Entwined: Tales of Good and Grimm (2012)
Most of them walk by it and try to pretend that it never existed.
(On a cross-thread note: EITA does have the best themed ride op uniforms in the park though.)
Party Rocker said:
Most of them walk by it and try to pretend that it never existed.
(On a cross-thread note: EITA does have the best themed ride op uniforms in the park though.)