Interesting development in Ohio. This will effect all the county and state fairs as well as permanent amusement parks -
COVID-19 & Coasters: Coronavirus Impacts on the Amusement Industry
- Thread starter GrandpaD
- Start date
That’s not really that big of a deal. It sucks the inspectors are being layed off. But they did say they will bring back the inspectors once the amusement rides can reopen. So if anything there may be some delay, but otherwise, rises will still get inspected when those places reopen.
I wonder if an emergency stop-gap in the law can be implemented where the parks can hire an independent certified inspector (newly laid off state inspectors or others, acting as a 3rd party vendor and not park staff) within a given timeframe to do their inspection and submit their report to the state, along with whatever fee, so the state could temporarily keep on whomever is needed to review the documents and issue the certifications.
Yes, there is the general rule that people loose their minds when they go on vacation or visit a theme park.
Be that as it may, parks in general aren’t going to list out a few paragraphs worth of directions. And there really is no need because it is overkill.
It can’t be any worse than with ChristmasTown tickets. I remember those used to be dates too in order to control crowd flow. I’m not certain they still are. But the same logic applies, once a date is sold out its greyed out. There is no misunderstanding, there is no restrictions. Either it’s available or not.
If anything people may assume they’re busier than usual if they have sold out days.
Its not the parks fault or responsibility if someone ordering a product or service online can’t tell if it is sold out or not.
Also I’m certain you’ll be able to order via telephone too; which might be more helpful to some people.
Parks overall do have capacity numbers, there are many codes for walkways, pathways, egress, and many other regulations.
I dont remember anyone so far saying parks would be limited to 25% of their average attendance for a year per day. That makes no sense and I dont think you would want the Disney number crunchers using that math because they would just as soon stay closed as lose money each day using math that gives them attendance that low.
Now on to the last point, If you have a WDW annual pass and are at the park in the morning at rope drop you can pretty much guarentee you can go to the park every day of the year if you want, you just have to put in the effort to be there early. With the rumored reservation system it makes the entire park basically like Rise of the Resistance where no matter how much effortyou put in its just luck that you get to go to a park on a specific day.
With Disney a reservation system is going to be mind bogglingly difficult to implement, they are selling vacation packages with dining plans and people have for months now had dining reservations to get the value from those dining plans, folks have planned out days down to the minute and have dining reservations and fastpasses across multipul parks a day. Some book vacations based on going to a park each day so what happens to the family that has had a trip in the plans for over a year yet their Magic Kingdom day they cant get reservations for. How about those that have a hard enough time understanding and boking fastpasses. How many of those folks will show up at their Disney resort and then dont know you need reservations to get in the park on the tickets they paid for. If any park can pull it off its Disney....but its going to be complicated.
First off, the purpose of that quoted section was to provide my insight of (after working and dealing with attendance at BGW) how little the parks and their regulatory agencies care about actual, physical people in terms of numbers. I have personally seen and been told that there is no set number for capacity. They fit in as many people as they can. However, instead of debating this topic, someone can actually contact the James City County Fire Marshall and simply ask what the capacity of BGW is exactly, or you can dig through whatever codes there are and determine capacity by that method. Regardless, please do everyone a favor and provide sources and information accordingly, similarly to how I provided actual research and a link to the information.
Now, as for reducing capacity, there have been a multitude of percentages thrown around regarding how much a park would be limited by. One source, Mr. Chapek I think, publicly stated that they would aim for less than 25% upon first opening; however, that may only reference Shanghai. In that event, as far as Orlando is concerned, the guidelines discussed mentioned a 50% reduction moving up to a 75% reduction based on phases. Feel free to input any percentage you desire. That said, do not sit there and declare that at 25% operating capacity that the parks won't reopen due to not making enough money. Unless you have any kind of research or information to share, you can not make such bold and outlandish claims. Furthermore, this is an enthusiast thread, not a real-life theme park operation that we are planning out. I never claimed that they could make money or that they will definitively open with that. I was merely offering a means of calculating capacity based on estimated attendance figures. Obviously, their capacity may be higher than their previous attendance; which is why I tried to make it very clear that all these numbers are merely estimates. They are realistic estimates -- meaning, that their just very good guesses using some form of industry standard research and that the capacities may not be too far off. However, when I said it was an average, it should have clued in that this number may actually be slightly higher.
No, I do not believe it is luck to determine which day you get to go. However, if their reservation system is anything like current dining reservations, you will have to wake up right before midnight and keep refreshing their website 6 months in advance. Yes, you would have to put that little bit of effort in to it. Also, your assumption is based on the idea that everyone in the world will have access to these reservations. Currently, there are restrictions on international flights. If international guests really do make up the majority of WDW's attendance, then that actually makes it easier for pass holders to reserve and be able to show up. However, I will agree that reservations may be busy simply because it is Disney, but as others have pointed out 60% of Americans don't want to visit theme parks before a vaccine. If the parks reopen before a vaccine, attendance will naturally be slow making a reservation system even easier.
I will also concede that anyone with existing reservations is going to be stuck in a mess. WDW may decide to cancel all existing reservations or otherwise offer to reschedule. More than likely, I believe that WDW will announce that any existing reservations will have to be rescheduled or rebooked.
Now, as for reducing capacity, there have been a multitude of percentages thrown around regarding how much a park would be limited by. One source, Mr. Chapek I think, publicly stated that they would aim for less than 25% upon first opening; however, that may only reference Shanghai. In that event, as far as Orlando is concerned, the guidelines discussed mentioned a 50% reduction moving up to a 75% reduction based on phases. Feel free to input any percentage you desire. That said, do not sit there and declare that at 25% operating capacity that the parks won't reopen due to not making enough money. Unless you have any kind of research or information to share, you can not make such bold and outlandish claims. Furthermore, this is an enthusiast thread, not a real-life theme park operation that we are planning out. I never claimed that they could make money or that they will definitively open with that. I was merely offering a means of calculating capacity based on estimated attendance figures. Obviously, their capacity may be higher than their previous attendance; which is why I tried to make it very clear that all these numbers are merely estimates. They are realistic estimates -- meaning, that their just very good guesses using some form of industry standard research and that the capacities may not be too far off. However, when I said it was an average, it should have clued in that this number may actually be slightly higher.
No, I do not believe it is luck to determine which day you get to go. However, if their reservation system is anything like current dining reservations, you will have to wake up right before midnight and keep refreshing their website 6 months in advance. Yes, you would have to put that little bit of effort in to it. Also, your assumption is based on the idea that everyone in the world will have access to these reservations. Currently, there are restrictions on international flights. If international guests really do make up the majority of WDW's attendance, then that actually makes it easier for pass holders to reserve and be able to show up. However, I will agree that reservations may be busy simply because it is Disney, but as others have pointed out 60% of Americans don't want to visit theme parks before a vaccine. If the parks reopen before a vaccine, attendance will naturally be slow making a reservation system even easier.
I will also concede that anyone with existing reservations is going to be stuck in a mess. WDW may decide to cancel all existing reservations or otherwise offer to reschedule. More than likely, I believe that WDW will announce that any existing reservations will have to be rescheduled or rebooked.
For what it is worth, according to the WP article I posted, “Comcast executives recently told investors that they would need 50 percent attendance to break even on their Universal theme parks. Disney’s theme parks might not be allowed such numbers. (Florida restaurants are being told to limit service to 25 percent capacity.)l
@VonDerrick The only place I've ever seen a capacity number was here. How they arrived at 38k is beyond me. I will say, from my days there, the various "park is at capacity" closures (Howl-o-Scream, Christmas Town, etc.) is based solely on parking lot capacity, not the physical park. Traffic team members monitor the lots. No spaces left? Park is full. I'm not sure of, and can't find anything that indicates, the number of parking spaces at BGW.
If you're referring to Disney, CEO Chapek said they will not open any park unless they can add to the profit level. (In other words, they're not opening to just break even).
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I was merely replying to your pervious statement that "buildings have government imposed capacity limits parks themselves dont have set numbers"....your follow up reply was that someone should contact the JCC Fire Marshall to see what the exact numbers for BGW are.....so in one statement you say there are no set numbers but then in another you say there are?
In your second paragraph you are discussing percentages, I never debated that. I was however talking about how you came up with figuring your park capacity by taking the yearly attendance, dividing by 365 and coming up with daily attendance then taking a percentage of that.
Lastly my bold and outlandish statement....as you said. It was Chapek who said they will not open unless they can turn a profit.
Something to keep in mind is that parks may opt to open at a low capacity to get their operations worked out and staff trained on new procedures. They definitely don't want to do that with a large attendance volume and being under the microscope from gov officials and the press. Once they have procedures worked out they can increase the capacity little by little until it hits an operational threshold that is the max they can manage under social distancing.
Whether this new max capacity is 50% or 75% of the prior capacity or typical attendance is immaterial. What matters is what volume of attendance the park can reasonably manage without putting employees and guests at risk for a major outbreak.
Whether this new max capacity is 50% or 75% of the prior capacity or typical attendance is immaterial. What matters is what volume of attendance the park can reasonably manage without putting employees and guests at risk for a major outbreak.
Which is what Bob Chapek said in the Disney quarterly conference call two days ago -
Bob Chapek -- Chief Executive Officer
Sure, you got it. In terms of Shanghai Disney Resort our capacity tends to be 80,000 a day. The government is putting a limit on that. Roughly they want us to be at about 30% of that. So it's 24,000 a day. We're going to actually open up far below that just to have our training wheels on with our new procedures and processes to make sure we don't have any lines backing up either as guests entering into the park or as they wade through the park. So we're going to approach that very, very slowly. But after a few weeks we will actually be up to what the government's guideline is and at that point there could be some lifting of even those restrictions of the 30%. So those are the metrics there.
Obviously, while the numbers will change depending on the park. I'm sure they'll use Shanghai's experiences in their other parks planning.
You completely missed the part where I said it is based on my experience of working there, what I've been told and what I've seen. My telling you to research is so that you can create a better discussion with actual information instead of randomly throwing out posts that contain speculation.
This is you specifically pointing out the percentage. I only used the percentage because people all over these forums kept throwing out percentages of capacity and attendance.
Regardless, as @GrandpaD pointed out, Chapek did say they would operate at a lower volume for better planning and preparation for larger crowds. He may have specifically been referring to Shanghai solely, but I would not put it past them to open each location in a similar fashion.
Thinking about the crowd sizes, I am not sure that I will be comfortable as a guest at certain parks if the attendance numbers aren’t kept very small. For example, Disney’s Animal Kingdom is designed to feel tight and crowded, and even on a lighter day, the paths are still difficult to navigate in many sections. I can’t imagine being able to socially distance there unless they dramatically limit the number of visitors.
Im not sure how that comports with the company’s financial needs, but it is worth noting that not all parks are designed for COVID safety guidelines.
Im not sure how that comports with the company’s financial needs, but it is worth noting that not all parks are designed for COVID safety guidelines.
@VonDerrick Just to give you a perspective of not the business and not a fire code, but rather a township planner, everything has the capacity. It's what everything is designed off of. Parking, entrances, parking booths, roads in, roads out, heck even zoning to allow for hotels. Maybe it's somewhere deep within there and listed as more theoretical capacity based on these factors.
@GrandpaD There would be formulas that correlate parking to physical space. Here's an example from JCC itself:
Here's an example I could quickly find:
https://qcode.us/codes/roseville/view.php?topic=19-iii-19_26-19_26_030&frames=on
Roseville California requires on average requires 1 parking spot for every 180 sq ft of entertainment space, with amusement parks "As determined as part of the design review approval". So even then that can't significantly undermine how many spaces you would need based on how many people can be in there.
To give the example of a place that could theoretically have "no capacity", a golf course:
https://henrico.us/pdfs/countyattorney/Chpt024Zoning.pdf
Most of the way down, there's a chart for what you can do with parking. Golf courses will typically use 10, 11, 14, 12 for their parking.
10 - 5 spots for every hole, 18 holes, 90 spots
11 - Most clubhouses have a couple hundred sq ft of dining, lets say 800 st ft, 1 per 100 sq ft, 8 more spots put to 98.
14 - Most courses have a pro shop, lets say 400 sq ft, 1 per 200 sq ft, that's another 2 spots, up to 100.
12 - Courses need offices in them, we'll say it hits the 400 sq foot area, you need another 6 spots now up to 106.
If you look at Federal Club via google maps (roughly what those numbers are built on) you would see there's 151 parking spots, so actually more than they need. As planners we do talk about (everywhere varies with this) needing a "single passenger quotient", which means you need to add more spaces than you think to account for large families in a van vs the one person in a car.
Basically TL;DR, the number of parking spaces for anywhere isn't random, it's based on how many people can be in a given space and average riders per car.
https://wydaily.com/local-news-old/...e-than-500-additional-overflow-parking-spots/
7,641
@GrandpaD There would be formulas that correlate parking to physical space. Here's an example from JCC itself:
Here's an example I could quickly find:
https://qcode.us/codes/roseville/view.php?topic=19-iii-19_26-19_26_030&frames=on
Roseville California requires on average requires 1 parking spot for every 180 sq ft of entertainment space, with amusement parks "As determined as part of the design review approval". So even then that can't significantly undermine how many spaces you would need based on how many people can be in there.
To give the example of a place that could theoretically have "no capacity", a golf course:
https://henrico.us/pdfs/countyattorney/Chpt024Zoning.pdf
Most of the way down, there's a chart for what you can do with parking. Golf courses will typically use 10, 11, 14, 12 for their parking.
10 - 5 spots for every hole, 18 holes, 90 spots
11 - Most clubhouses have a couple hundred sq ft of dining, lets say 800 st ft, 1 per 100 sq ft, 8 more spots put to 98.
14 - Most courses have a pro shop, lets say 400 sq ft, 1 per 200 sq ft, that's another 2 spots, up to 100.
12 - Courses need offices in them, we'll say it hits the 400 sq foot area, you need another 6 spots now up to 106.
If you look at Federal Club via google maps (roughly what those numbers are built on) you would see there's 151 parking spots, so actually more than they need. As planners we do talk about (everywhere varies with this) needing a "single passenger quotient", which means you need to add more spaces than you think to account for large families in a van vs the one person in a car.
Basically TL;DR, the number of parking spaces for anywhere isn't random, it's based on how many people can be in a given space and average riders per car.
This article from the last parking expansion has the total number of spots:
https://wydaily.com/local-news-old/...e-than-500-additional-overflow-parking-spots/
7,641
7,641 spaces, each with say a family of four would equate to an approximate capacity of 30,564; which is actually a fairly close estimate to what I've seen in the park. Typically, BGW will cap around 30-35K, but depending on the groups that show up I've heard it get to 40K.
I can attest, in 4+ seasons, I never heard that big of a number. Low 30's it's even a tough number to achieve
@warfelg Having worked for decades in property management I'm well aware of mandated parking ratios. I believe I quoted the JCC ratio somewhere in the Sesame Place thread when parking garages were being suggested.
Just an aside, I wonder how the BGW ratio works in that the overflow lots are located in York County with the park and main lots in JCC.
Disney Springs starts phased reopening...
"The rest of Walt Disney World Resort will remain closed, including theme parks and resort hotels."
- shops / restaurants that do open will be *select* third-party vendors
- nothing owned by WDW will open yet
- nothing else at WDW will open
- increased safety measures
- limited capacity / hours / parking
Disney Springs Begins Phased Reopening on May 20
A phased reopening of Disney Springs will begin on May 20. Following the guidance of government and health officials, a limited number of shopping and dining experiences that are owned by third-party operating participants will begin to open during
disneyparks.disney.go.com
"The rest of Walt Disney World Resort will remain closed, including theme parks and resort hotels."
- shops / restaurants that do open will be *select* third-party vendors
- nothing owned by WDW will open yet
- nothing else at WDW will open
- increased safety measures
- limited capacity / hours / parking