Concepts Think Tank

[SLC Headache]

On second thought, if the return of the Big Bad Wolf is impossible, or if it would have to be tamed to the point where it's as weak as Iron Dragon for it to not be a maintenance nightmare, then the next best thing - or possibly even better - to replace Verbolten would be an RMC Topper Track woodie.

The Black Forest motif would have made much more sense for a wooden coaster tearing through the forest than for a launch coaster whipping through a show building. They should have gone with GCI for 2012, but I have a feeling corporate mandated a launch coaster or something. Oh well, InvadR is a very good family wooden coaster, so a more intense wooden coaster would be an excellent complement. Such a ride could also compete with Twisted Timbers, if not Lightning Rod or El Toro.

As for a layout, they should send trains the opposite direction to start the ride. The Big Bad Wolf's ending turns become a quiet prelift. (Vaguely inspired by GhostRider's prelift).

I'm biased for sure, but I'd be happy seeing even empty space or a Howl-O-Scream trail replacing Verbolten.

If they ever went that route, I think a great spiritual successor to BBW would be a S&S family suspended coaster with the exact same layout.

Too bad we have Alpie already and I can't see a second suspended going in like that.

Two inverts isn't unreasonable. Kings Island, Carowinds, and Canada's Wonderland all have Vekoma family inverts to complement their bigger inverts. La Ronde has both an SLC and a Batman. Dorney had three inverts, down to two as Stinger is being removed.

A family invert (preferably swinging suspended) could complement Alpengeist pretty well.

 

[bill s]

An idea I want to post is a mine train, but a family invert like you're discussing in the last post could be used instead in the same way.

The mine train would be a scenic one, such as along the shores of the Rhine and/or even including something like the mini town scenes like BBW did, perhaps those could be used right up against Verb's show bldg. The advantage of a smaller, slower coaster is it can come closer to scenery, not requiring huge fences and cleared areas for safety. The idea here is also to add a much milder ride than anything but Grover ... actually very similar trains and tech could be used (one idea I had looking at the trains is if the seats could adapt to 1 large person as well as 2 small ones) including tire-based lifts and launches (although LSMs are smoother). Launch tech, much milder than usual of course, would allow layouts not workable otherwise without pacing-killing multiple lifts (although one in the right place might not), and for intensity to build over the course of the ride rather than the usual coaster which is literally downhill. The maximum intensity would include some pops of air, a sense of speed and curves exceeding 2 Gs but only in the last third of the course, and no quick transitions. It would clearly be aimed at those who most rides are too intense for, and yet the length, scenes and quality would make it fun and pleasant for everyone.

As to Project Madrid, it would seem to me too much to open an entire new hamlet and a huge coaster the same year -- though of course they would want the long term plans together to do it at all. So it seems quite possible to me that the 315' is an observation tower or swings ride. The question is whether BG wants to take on KD or not with gigas (which would result in the VA-Carolinas region becoming the gigacoaster capital of the world!). Either way, the mine train would be an excellent addition for a new area.

 

[Hamptonian]

With a big wide open space ripe for the taking with darkastle gone, why not make a year round walkthrough attraction? Curse of Darkastle: Ludwigs Revenge. Maybe use augmented reality glasses with it ? Like you're part of a paranormal research group trying to explore the legend of darkastle. This leads to you walking through scares both in reality and through the goggles?

 

[SLC Headache]

I'm biased for sure, but I'd be happy seeing even empty space or a Howl-O-Scream trail replacing Verbolten.

And my wish was corrupted before it was granted. DarKastle is holiday event space for now.

My dream for DarKastle's spot would be an indoor coaster along the lines of Skull Mountain. Possibly buying back Glissade and enclosing it? I could accept Dark Knight because I held it to Six Flags standards, not Busch standards, though the Sand Serpent building rumors do have me lowering that standard. Combined with Project Madrid possibly being a launch coaster, and we can safely get rid of Verbolten, whose building then becomes the event building.

 

[Zachary]

How about we stop removing major attractions for special event space that only sees use 1/4th of the year? I like that idea a lot more...

 

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

How about removing Nessie for a dinner theater pavilion?

 

[SLC Headache]

How about removing Nessie for a dinner theater pavilion?

If the loops will be put in front of the place or on the roof as a monument, I'm all for it.

Or maybe put the loops at the park entrance. Fits the English theming there, Alton Towers did that with their Corkscrew.

 

[warfelg]

How about removing Nessie for a dinner theater pavilion?

If the loops will be put in front of the place or on the roof as a monument, I'm all for it.

Or maybe put the loops at the park entrance. Fits the English theming there, Alton Towers did that with their Corkscrew.

No, nope, nada, nein, non, uh uhhh, no way jose.

They should never even think of any of that.

If, IF, anything were to ever happen to Nessie the loops should stay right where they are as a testament to her greatness.

 

[SLC Headache]

How about removing Nessie for a dinner theater pavilion?

If the loops will be put in front of the place or on the roof as a monument, I'm all for it.

Or maybe put the loops at the park entrance. Fits the English theming there, Alton Towers did that with their Corkscrew.

No, nope, nada, nein, non, uh uhhh, no way jose.

They should never even think of any of that.

If, IF, anything were to ever happen to Nessie the loops should stay right where they are as a testament to her greatness.

I thought Pretzel Kaiser's post was facetious and was playing along.

But if Nessie is removed, the hypothetical New Nessie needs to have interlocking loops too, lest it get skewered for being too different from its predecessor. You thought my bashing of Verbolten is bad, just wait until a New Nessie dares to not have interlocking loops. Again, doubtful they'd ever remove it since Arrow loopers have a pretty long life (unless they're just bad like Shockwave or Drachen Fire).

 

[warfelg]

I only need to point to Flight of Passage in Avatar land as a counter to this. Avatar is nothing real world but strictly CGI. However the 2-3-4 hour waits for this AR attraction show a potential in a new evolution of ride experiences.

People are looking for experiences not just a ride, and when you can experience something like AR on Flight of Passage that leaves you 'wowed" over something more generic like VR and video with a head set you will start seeing attendance boost.

I'm not discount Battle at all, it's just VR isn't an experience like it once was in light of $10 headsets at Walmart and free VR games on iPhone or Android anyone can do at home.

A few things here:
AR is still really expensive. A app on your phone to just overlay into a picture? $30,000 to develop. Wand a decent set of glasses for AR? You're talking $3,000 each. AR is still a technology that is too expensive for most parks outside of Disney and Universal. Pandora as a land cost Disney $500 million to build. I would be willing to bet at least $50 million - $100 million went into Flight of Passage alone.

Next:
Look at the graphics of those $10 walmart headsets and free games. They are bad. From what we've seen out of BfE, these graphics are really good, and boarder big budget animated film quality. Also look what I said about VR. In most theme park uses so far they have used it to try to breath some life into low ridership or older coasters. This is the first time (IMO) VR is being used the right way, in conjunction with a motion simulator. That's something that can't be overlooked. VR to this level has only been around for about 10 years now. That's not old at all.

I'm sorry of all the things to make a statement on, saying they are making a mistake with "outdated" VR technology is about the poorest thing to make a statement on IMO.

 

[acrossdapark]

Maybe $3k if you're looking at HoloLens. However there are dozens of other comparable glasses/headsets out there in the $350-600 range.

At the end of the day people are looking for experiences. Disney and others are leading the field in this, pulling attendance down at SEAS and other parks cumulatively.

VR is NOT an experience nor is it going to save SEAS nor will it bring in the attendance numbers an experience like Pandora or Wizarding World will. i'm not trying to compare apples to oranges, but the decision is futile in wasted money on build out, development and cultivation. Meanwhile shutting other rides down just to support this.

I'm not convinced when I look at this realistically vs. the way other parks and the markets are moving.

 

[warfelg]

The $350-600 glasses aren't AR glasses, those are 3-D glasses. It's not true augmented reality, as it takes something on a screen and pops it down.

True pure augmented reality is still absurdly expensive. Being able to make something appear on nothing as of right now (aka lack of screen/projection) has be limited to text and simple pictures. And they still are somewhat transparent too and can't yet make something appear solid enough to seem real. The technology to do as you are asking is so so far away.

Yes, the two leading the field are Disney and Universal, who are so far above and beyond what any regional park can do.

Want to know why DK was so universally lauded? Because it was the only place outside of the huge Florida attractions to combine that type of ride vehicle, 3D projections, and physical sets. But that's an out dated technology right? No it's just not affordable enough for other parks to use yet.

I would say VR on a motion simulator IS an experience. There's still a lot of people out there who haven't experienced VR. And after a few VR coasters, I would argue I still haven't experienced a good use of VR in amusement parks. And there's nothing that will magically save SEAS like that. AR won't. A majority of the park going public are not enthusiasts like us. A family is not coming from Florida to Williamsburg just because of AR.

And no duh VR won't bring in the same numbers as Pandora and HP will. Both are completely immersive lands. Pandora is one of the largest grossing films of all time, and HP is the greatest generation transcending YA book/movie series now franchise ever. Nothing compares to that.

They shut down one ride that sounds like was in need of and update, and would be as expensive to update as a new ride. So now you have a choice that you can't have both ways. Shutter a ride and save that money in order to get something new, or invest in that ride and not get something new. So you can't have both because the cost doesn't support doing both.

There's plenty of other parks struggling out there. It's not something that's only hitting SEAS and no one else.

 

[..…]

[split] Aquitaine (France)

I've always thought Aquitaine would be a great area to build a second floor above La Belle Maison (or one of the surrounding buildings) and open a small spa, with manicures, pedicures and massages or something. The Maryland Renaissance Festival has a massage booth, which I thought was weird at first, but turns out it's actually popular. This makes me wonder if such a thing would also be popular at a theme park, and the relative tranquility of Aquitaine would make the perfect place for a short spa break in the middle of the day. Appointments could be booked in advance, and maybe some sort of annual package could be sold. Perhaps it would even attract local BGW members on a regular basis. Not sure if this is the correct thread for thoughts like this, but mention of the work being done in that area made me think of it.

 

[Nicole]

I think that is a really interesting idea.

Are you thinking of a day spa for adults, or something more like Disney's Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique?

 

[..…]

I was originally thinking a spa for adults, but since I don't have kids I didn't know there was even a market for kid-themed spas. In fact, I had to Google Bibbity Bobbity Boutique because I didn't know what it was. That's an excellent discussion point!

Here are my thoughts:

1) Have two separate spas, an adult one and a kid-themed one, but maybe the kid-themed one could also offer services to parents, making it more family-centric.

2) Have one spa, but with an area specifically for adults and another area for adults with kids, but nothing specifically kid-themed. This way, the park would have more flexibility on how they booked. If no kids were booked, they could use the entire spa for adults. Or they could set certain hours where parents can book with their kids. My point is that if there were nothing specifically kid-themed, the park could better align their bookings with demand.

Those with kids would probably have a much better idea of what would work best, but that's what popped into my head!

 

[Merboy]

I think this is a brilliant idea! I think it opens up a whole new perspective of the park that sort of gears it towards adults in a really positive way that doesn't also exclude it's existing kid demographic. If there were a spa that was for adults only and it was as out of the way as being on a second level in Aquitaine then it would attract guests to BG for the purpose of having a relaxing getaway, which (if I'm not mistaken) is exactly why many if not most adult guests come to BG anyways. There are so many that come to ride coasters and get their thrills but also there are those who like to people watch and have some wine and chill out. All of it is fun, and adding a spa would super level up the adult appeal of BG. Which is always good. *Always* good. If this were Roller Coaster Tycoon I would have three of these installed already.

 

[halfabee]

Maybe the initial offering can be a simple modest-upcharge massage.  Have 15-, 30-, and 60-minute options at a fairly reasonable price, offered in an air-conditioned space.  Pending its inevitable popularity, an expansion of those offerings could bring an actual day spa experience.

Massage can be offered in a wide variety of locations -- airports often have them in the smaller vendor stalls -- but a spa per se would be a bigger deal requiring more space and more employees to provide a wider range of services.  I have to wonder whether it would make sense to even have a spa inside the park in the first place, as guests would pay park admission and then while away a couple of hours for additional paid spa services... Williamsburg has multiple day spas that lack only proximity to the park, and you can at least walk through the front doors for free.  

Why not have a spa building on park property that either is separate from the main turnstiles or otherwise straddles the periphery of some visitor-accessible area within the park?  There is a newly available footprint near Lorikeet Glen which backs up to the employee entry road. An existing walking path from the England lot would provide easy access to an outside-the-park entrance, and a similar inside-the-park entrance to the same building would allow service offerings from the Ireland-to-France pathway.  The two entries could be separated via an upstairs/downstairs configuration, or be split down the middle as in the image below, to prevent spa visitors from using the building as a park entrance or exit.

 

[Nicole]

That is part of why asked about the target audience.  Disney's Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique mass produces princesses with glitter nail polish and sparkly everything.  That might be a better fit for a theme park. (Not that I am advocating a princess theme; I just mean something targeting little girls, while their mommies drink wine.)

 

[Merboy]

I would like glitter nail polish, sparkly everything, AND wine.

 

[Thomas]