News Cedar Fair Merges with Six Flags

[Thriller]

The cheap season passes and people anxious to use them has also increased the crowd lately.

I attended 10 weekdays there and every one of them was low crowd Rapterra 10 mins to walk on) except last Fri with the new passes isdued and moderate temp.

If temperature affects the crowd, they do virtually nothing to mitigate that. One giant fan. Closed indoor Jungle Market. Taking away Country Kitchen.
Only one indoor life entertainment show, and only one indoor attraction. Queues in the blazing sun.

 

[Mushroom]

The cheap season passes and people anxious to use them has also increased the crowd lately.

So. Their strategy is working?

 

[halfabee]

I believe "Project Accelerate" is in part a response to an upcoming crisis of aging rides from the Coaster Wars era, and they just can't sit back like in previous years. Included in this is closing coasters that simply have no chance of still being around in 10 years without new-ride-level investment and increasing maintenance costs.

Absolutely, 100%, and thank you for describing it so succinctly. We are living through the generational hangover of dot-com era largesse.

The debt-soaked drunken fever dream of late-90s Premier Parks (sorry, Six Flags) spending, with 10 years of capital expenditures fanatically crammed into less than half of that time, failed for largely predictable reasons. The multi-layered debt burden it left behind sailed that entire incarnation of the company straight to hell on a very slow boat. Again, predictable. The self-inflicted ongoing annual operating burden of dramatically expanded high-thrill ride offerings at regional amusement parks with limited growth potential was, once again, predictably deleterious. But I have to admit that even I didn't take the time to stop and ask: "What's it gonna be like in 25 or 30 years when these rides all approach end of life at roughly the same time?" And I can guarantee that nobody at in that C-suite spent any time thinking seriously about how the decommissioning wave would eventually play out. Business was going to keep growing forever, after all, and anyway from a business standpoint a quarter-century was so far away it might as well never arrive.

But now we know what this beast looks like from the other end. And incredibly, precisely at the same time Cedar Fair (sorry, Six Flags) has birthed the spiritual successor movie-monster mistake to the "Coaster Wars" and its immediate aftermath. There are clear structural differences, of course: for example, this time there was no overzealous spending spree to pack the parks with new attractions fueled by seemingly-endless cash before the Bad Times landed. So I'm oversimplifying for effect. Still, over the next 5-7 years I suspect this era will come to be labeled the "Great Contraction." Not to be confused with the actual great contraction between the 1930s and 1960s when the US roller coaster count plummeted from perhaps 2,000 to legitimately sub-200. But still a good name.

The difficult looming capital improvement expirations/decisions were mostly known, the debt burden was known, the general operating condition of the parks was or should have been known... maybe some elements of this Six Flags era's malaise were masked from Cedar Fair leadership before the merger, but the existence of major M&A risk certainly was known (if not as easily quantified). It remains frustrating that such a high-risk plan, lacking any truly unavoidable or overwhelming imperative to force its execution, was carried all the way through while so many people slowly shook their heads.

Oh well. Visit the smaller parks sooner rather than later, just in case. Divestiture is the zeitgeist.

 

[Vipergts500]

So over the last 2 weeks, I went to: SDC, SFSTL, WoF, SFA, KD, BGW, and Hershey. I thought it was interesting that I felt BGW, SDC, and Hershey had an overall better quality, variety, atmosphere, and more people inside the park than the others...

I felt WoF had too much open space and walking distance compared to the amount of rides...

 

[BlueHawk47]

I honsestly see that CP, KI, CW, KBF, KD, Carowinds, SFMM, SFGAm, SFGAdv, SFFT, SFMX, SFOT and SFOG, will be the parks that will receive significant investment as them being the properties that stratigically fit in their portforlio. I don't know what other 2 parks that could possibly fit in with the others mentioned above that will fit into SFEC's portfolio, but it is sighted at that there will be 15 properties that is going to be the main priority that will be foucused on with investments and overall generall park improvements.

 

[MaxxForceFan]

I honsestly see that CP, KI, CW, KBF, KD, Carowinds, SFMM, SFGAm, SFGAdv, SFFT, SFMX, SFOT and SFOG, will be the parks that will receive significant investment as them being the properties that stratigically fit in their portforlio. I don't know what other 2 parks that could possibly fit in with the others mentioned above that will fit into SFEC's portfolio, but it is sighted at that there will be 15 properties that is going to be the main priority that will be foucused on with investments and overall generall park improvements.

From the earnings call: "The recent improvement in attendance has been led by the performance of our 15 largest properties where our capital programs were concentrated this year."

Dorney Park and Six Flags New England were part of the capital program this year.

 

[Vipergts500]

I honsestly see that CP, KI, CW, KBF, KD, Carowinds, SFMM, SFGAm, SFGAdv, SFFT, SFMX, SFOT and SFOG, will be the parks that will receive significant investment as them being the properties that stratigically fit in their portforlio. I don't know what other 2 parks that could possibly fit in with the others mentioned above that will fit into SFEC's portfolio, but it is sighted at that there will be 15 properties that is going to be the main priority that will be foucused on with investments and overall generall park improvements.

So SFDK, WoF, SFSTL are question marks? I figure theyd keep either WoF or SFSTL? Painting Mamba a sign?

 

[Thriller]

So. Their strategy is working?

To increase attendance? Yes to increase revenue? Probably not

Only if it increases revenue in yhe long run with additional spending at the park that is above the decrease in gate revenue for the discount on the season passes.

Given the fact that they give away food with the meal plans, this is questionable if it will work. Additionally, local season passholders can go to the park without spending a dime if they choose to eat elsewhere. When one has the season pass they don’t feel obligated to spend the whole day at the park. With the over pricing of all the food at the park, why would one spend $25 for a mediocre meal at the park when they can get a mediocre meal across the street for $12?

They have taken a gamble. We will see how it plays out, but it did not work for six flags in the past with rock bottom prices and a lower quality experience. It led to bankruptcy….and that was before it season a meal plans were introduced.

I feel that the whole season pass culture has led to the decline of these parks. People coming often and spending little. It will probably work out better to have gate integrity, and reasonable prices. Have people pay a more appropriate price for each visit of the park but encourage more spending with prices in line with the outside world.

 

[Mushroom]

To increase attendance? Yes to increase revenue? Probably not

Only if it increases revenue in yhe long run with additional spending at the park that is above the decrease in gate revenue for the discount on the season passes.

Given the fact that they give away food with the meal plans, this is questionable if it will work. Additionally, local season passholders can go to the park without spending a dime if they choose to eat elsewhere. When one has the season pass they don’t feel obligated to spend the whole day at the park. With the over pricing of all the food at the park, why would one spend $25 for a mediocre meal at the park when they can get a mediocre meal across the street for $12?

They have taken a gamble. We will see how it plays out, but it did not work for six flags in the past with rock bottom prices and a lower quality experience. It led to bankruptcy….and that was before it season a meal plans were introduced.

I feel that the whole season pass culture has led to the decline of these parks. People coming often and spending little. It will probably work out better to have gate integrity, and reasonable prices. Have people pay a more appropriate price for each visit of the park but encourage more spending with prices in line with the outside world.

I’m not sure if you listened to the earnings call but it seemed pretty clear to me that the bad numbers this past quarter were driven primarily by (besides the flimsy “weather” excuse) lower than usual season pass renewal rates, and lower visitation by pass members which resulted in softer in-park spending.

It’s super clear that the issue they identified was that not enough people are buying season passes and therefore not spending enough in the park. They repeatedly emphasized that the solution is volume: make the pass more attractive -> sell more passes -> sell more things inside the parks. If a promotional price generates enough revenue to offset the opportunity cost of not selling at higher price, that’s a success. It’s a perfectly viable strategy, especially given the increased price sensitivity of theme park consumers that they mentioned on the call.

I feel that the whole season pass culture has led to the decline of these parks. People coming often and spending little. It will probably work out better to have gate integrity, and reasonable prices. Have people pay a more appropriate price for each visit of the park but encourage more spending with prices in line with the outside world.

This part in particular suggests to me that you didn’t listen to the earnings call. (Or if you did, you didn’t comprehend it.) “People coming often and spending little” is the exact opposite of the problem they identified — it’s that season pass holders aren’t coming enough.

You also seem to entirely neglect the enormous burden of customer acquisition costs. The season pass model is smart for regional parks because it’s a retention game — once you get the customer once, do everything you can to make them a lifetime customer. In effect, they use a subscription model. It’s based on the simple and almost universal marketing principle that it’s easier (and cheaper) to keep an existing customer than to acquire a new one.

Your strategy might work for destination parks, but for the majority of the chain’s regional parks, you would eat into the profitability of each day ticket so much with customer acquisition costs that you’d almost certainly blow up the profit margins of each ticket. Bad idea.

 

[rswashdc]

Big issue for SF season passes is they need to bifurcate their destination parks from the more regional ones. There is no reason you should get a season pass into CP for under $100 when HP is charging almost double that. It's the same for several of their parks that have captive audiences even if they are more regional in nature - i.e. CW, SFGA, KI, even KD or Carowinds. Those parks could easily support higher season pass prices with commensurate experiences, but are instead getting bundled in with smaller regional parks that are a harder draw.

Just a bad strategy in my mind as they aren't differentiating at all where they can. It would be like Hilton charging Hampton Inn prices for their higher end hotels. Of course those nicer hotels would be packed at the expense of their lower end ones. SF is basically taking that one size fits all tact and it doesn't work.

 

[guy305]

Big issue for SF season passes is they need to bifurcate their destination parks from the more regional ones. There is no reason you should get a season pass into CP for under $100 when HP is charging almost double that. It's the same for several of their parks that have captive audiences even if they are more regional in nature - i.e. CW, SFGA, KI, even KD or Carowinds. Those parks could easily support higher season pass prices with commensurate experiences, but are instead getting bundled in with smaller regional parks that are a harder draw.

Just a bad strategy in my mind as they aren't differentiating at all where they can. It would be like Hilton charging Hampton Inn prices for their higher end hotels. Of course those nicer hotels would be packed at the expense of their lower end ones. SF is basically taking that one size fits all tact and it doesn't work.

I feel like issue you raise has been addressed. Pass prices vary by park and you have to activate your pass at the park you bought it from.

A Valleyfair gold pass is $85, while a Knott’s gold pass is $120. I went ahead and checked the pricing for gold passes at each legacy CF park.

California's Great America	$75
Canada's Wonderland	$99
Carowinds	$95
Cedar Point	$99
Dorney Park	$95
Kings Dominion	$95
Kings Island	$115
Knott's Berry Farm	$120
Michigan's Adventure	$99
Valleyfair	$85
Worlds of Fun	$89

 

[Thriller]

I’m not sure if you listened to the earnings call but it seemed pretty clear to me that the bad numbers this past quarter were driven primarily by (besides the flimsy “weather” excuse) lower than usual season pass renewal rates, and lower visitation by pass members which resulted in softer in-park spending.

It’s super clear that the issue they identified was that not enough people are buying season passes and therefore not spending enough in the park. They repeatedly emphasized that the solution is volume: make the pass more attractive -> sell more passes -> sell more things inside the parks. If a promotional price generates enough revenue to offset the opportunity cost of not selling at higher price, that’s a success. It’s a perfectly viable strategy, especially given the increased price sensitivity of theme park consumers that they mentioned on the call.

This part in particular suggests to me that you didn’t listen to the earnings call. (Or if you did, you didn’t comprehend it.) “People coming often and spending little” is the exact opposite of the problem they identified — it’s that season pass holders aren’t coming enough.

You also seem to entirely neglect the enormous burden of customer acquisition costs. The season pass model is smart for regional parks because it’s a retention game — once you get the customer once, do everything you can to make them a lifetime customer. In effect, they use a subscription model. It’s based on the simple and almost universal marketing principle that it’s easier (and cheaper) to keep an existing customer than to acquire a new one.

Your strategy might work for destination parks, but for the majority of the chain’s regional parks, you would eat into the profitability of each day ticket so much with customer acquisition costs that you’d almost certainly blow up the profit margins of each ticket. Bad idea.

We’ll see. This strategy definitely led Six Flags to bankruptcy in the past and that was before these low profit meal plans were in place.

I listened to the call. What they failed to recognize is that the low attendance is due to mismanagement and cost-cutting leading to a lesser customer experience. And they are doing nothing to reverse that trend.

What they also failed dimension is that they are chasing the same exact customers with the same exact types of attractions, and not trying to grow their customer base with different types of customers. They are after two markets. Thrill riders, and little children.

They are also doing nothing to increase park spending. mediocre food at super high prices is not going to drive extra spending for locals. If they want to eat at the park, they’re going to buy the low profit meal plans.

Selling cheap season passes doesn’t fix mismanagement and doesn’t cause people to spend more at the park.

For years, I have watched these park experience deteriorate because these major companies are so fixated on season pass sales. And when they don’t produce the kind of revenue that they want, they cut cost and reduce the experience which leads to less revenue and so forth. Doubling down on cheap season passes is just part of this downward spiral

 

[horsesboy]

We’ll see. This strategy definitely led Six Flags to bankruptcy in the past and that was before these low profit meal plans were in place.

I listened to the call. What they failed to recognize is that the low attendance is due to mismanagement and cost-cutting leading to a lesser customer experience. And they are doing nothing to reverse that trend.

What they also failed dimension is that they are chasing the same exact customers with the same exact types of attractions, and not trying to grow their customer base with different types of customers. They are after two markets. Thrill riders, and little children.

They are also doing nothing to increase park spending. mediocre food at super high prices is not going to drive extra spending for locals. If they want to eat at the park, they’re going to buy the low profit meal plans.

Selling cheap season passes doesn’t fix mismanagement and doesn’t cause people to spend more at the park.

For years, I have watched these park experience deteriorate because these major companies are so fixated on season pass sales. And when they don’t produce the kind of revenue that they want, they cut cost and reduce the experience which leads to less revenue and so forth. Doubling down on cheap season passes is just part of this downward spiral

To introduce some differing info into the debate CF actually saw increases in in park spending as they rolled out drink and meal plans and even after factoring in the high cost of those plans they ended up ahead so this is not a zero sum equation.

 

[warfelg]

To introduce some differing info into the debate CF actually saw increases in in park spending as they rolled out drink and meal plans and even after factoring in the high cost of those plans they ended up ahead so this is not a zero sum equation.

I’ll add something else:
Earnings and quarterly calls almost never go through every line item. Often they are highlighting parts of the line items.

Like in this case, highlighting in park spending being down (after actually listening to the call) it seems like the highlight was to deflect that overall something in the park happened. They did use weather a lot to justify it, but every park had that and some were up, so that doesn’t sit great with me as a reasoning.

But I really don’t think this line being brought up for a reason to say they are worried, rather they identified a place where they aren’t executing well and justifying the decline, while indicating it’s a focus for them moving forward of encouraging more in park spending.

 

[Bigskinny]

Does the drink plan work at other parks? I bought for KD and am at SfGAdv. I was under the impression that it does

 

[Thriller]

Does the drink plan work at other parks? I bought for KD and am at SfGAdv. I was under the impression that it does

I believe the way they’re selling it for 2026. There’s only one drink plan option so it’s good at all parks. However, the meal plan has a one pack or all park option.

However, with the way this company does bait and switch like the up charges for haunt, it’s hard to tell. Maybe they have it in their master plan to only have the drink plan good at one park and then when customers use that all parks pass, they have to pay for drinks at the other parks. I wouldn’t put it past them.

 

[Bigskinny]

I believe the way they’re selling it for 2026. There’s only one drink plan option so it’s good at all parks. However, the meal plan has a one pack or all park option.

However, with the way this company does bait and switch like the up charges for haunt, it’s hard to tell. Maybe they have it in their master plan to only have the drink plan good at one park and then when customers use that all parks pass, they have to pay for drinks at the other parks. I wouldn’t put it past them.

Imma go talk to guest services

Edit: they said it’s only admission you get until January 1st. Then the drinks will work across

 

[Mattatee]

Drinks should work at legacy CF parks for this year I believe.

 

[MisterToro]

I purchased all-park passes and an all-season drink cup at KD (even though the passes tell me SFoT once imported into the SF app, but that's another mystery). I found that the legacy CF parks have no qualms filling the cup at any time. But the SF parks I've visited are a mixed bag. Some spots don't bat an eye, some complain that the cup is the wrong color (orange), and some refuse to recognize that SF merged with CF and that the cup was no bueno. So YMMV - you might just try somewhere else in the park.

The orange cup from KD does list the CF parks around the bottom. SF has a nearly identical cup (but purple, IIRC?) that lists all the SF parks around the bottom. So technically there may be a difference. But at time of purchase, I don't remember seeing anything that said that it wouldn't work at all the new SF parks - and that was something I was looking for.

 

[Crunchewy]

Is there any reason to buy a KD Gold pass instead of a SFGAdv Gold pass? The SFGAdv one is only $79 while KDs is $95. I still get access to KD, right? I know I need to go to SFGAdv first, but that’s no problem. They have similar travel times for me. Just wondering if there’s some catch I’m missing.