News Cedar Fair Merges with Six Flags

[rswashdc]

You’re thinking too narrow— if you look at SeaWorld and BGT you can see how two parks can coexist and even benefit each other in a small geographic area.

BGT/SWO is a good example where the parks complement one another by offering different experiences to guests and creating synergy. New SF has an issue where a lot of the regional parks have very little differentiation to them and they are just cannibalizing the same customers from each other.

 

[GoHokies87]

SFGAdv is clearly a NYC park and Dorney is clearly a Philly park. Yes the cities are close. This isn't like having two parks in the same place in Ohio. Carry on

 

[guy305]

GL was also plagued with its own problems- the park grew way too fast in a short time and the surrounding roads weren’t made for all the traffic, for one. And the proximity to Cedar Point specifically didn’t help.

 

[SLC Headache]

Just got it working. $99 to upgrade, and it lasts a year. As the Kings Dominion Gold Pass alone was $99, this is a good deal for me, who let his Cedar Fair pass lapse during the pandemic (while never getting around to cancel his Six Flags and United Parks memberships and leaving them active to this day).

OK, this is odd, it says I'm now just a "guest" when I log in on desktop. But when I open the app, it shows the All Park Passport - Prestige All Parks Membership that I bought for 2025, and the membership still has an expiration date of 2100. I've hidden my last name, barcode, and member ID.

 

[warfelg]

I think the biggest hurdle for them to overcome is multi-park passes with parks that close. With the SWO and BGT comp, their top level pass that lets you go to either park costs the exact same. SFGAdv and Dorney are not worth passes that cost the exact same, but you don’t want people using SFGAdv as their home park while buying the pass through Dorney. So they will need to tier their parks, sell passes on that basis, allow a limited number of free visits, and discounts on tickets to go up a tier.

 

[Riboflavenus]

I think the biggest hurdle for them to overcome is multi-park passes with parks that close. With the SWO and BGT comp, their top level pass that lets you go to either park costs the exact same. SFGAdv and Dorney are not worth passes that cost the exact same, but you don’t want people using SFGAdv as their home park while buying the pass through Dorney. So they will need to tier their parks, sell passes on that basis, allow a limited number of free visits, and discounts on tickets to go up a tier.

That sounds overly complicated and consumer-unfriendly - and kind of defeats the purpose of multi-park passes. I agree that it's inequitable for say a Dorney local to have to pay the same as a cedar fair local for a multi-park pass, but having one fee for everyone is really the most sensible solution. I'm sure others will disagree, though, and that's ok.

 

[warfelg]

That sounds overly complicated and consumer-unfriendly - and kind of defeats the purpose of multi-park passes.

I would argue the opposite. It’s consumer friendly by ensuring all passes happen at an equitable price. If I got my pass at SFGAdv at a higher rate, then found out someone who’s there just as much is paying less because they went to Dorney to get theirs, I would be extremely pissed.

EDIT:
I come from a field that does this all the time and it’s very friendly, and laid out nicely. Golf Clubs that are part of a network often have what we call reciprocal fees, so if your a tier 4 club and you want to play a tier 3 club it’s like $40 fee to play there. If you went to the tier 2 it’s a $100 fee, and you can’t go to a tier 1 club for example. It ensures that people don’t join a lower tier park and abuse the ability to go to other parks.

 

[Mushroom]

New SF has an issue where a lot of the regional parks have very little differentiation to them and they are just cannibalizing the same customers from each other.

Surely the more profitable solution then is to invest in differentiating the parks, not making the short-sighted decision to shutter one?

I also question whether there’s a data to suggest that parks that are relatively close in proximity truly cannibalize a significant proportion of each other’s audience. With the exception of SFDK and CGA, there aren’t really any parks that share the same exact population centers (and the SFDK-CGA situation will naturally resolve itself with CGA’s unrelated closure).

The next closest pairing is probably KD and SFA, but if you take them as an example, the argument of cannibalization unravels quickly. SFA uniquely serves the Baltimore/greater Maryland area, while only KD serves Richmond and southern/western Virginia. The idea that closing one of these parks would cause most of these guests to just switch to the other park is absurd. They will either go to a closer competitor (e.g. BGW) or they will just not go to a park anymore. Hardly anyone is driving 3+ hours to a park when they used to drive 30 minutes to get to one.

 

[warfelg]

I agree mostly with what you are saying there @Mushroom - but just of note, Dorney and SFGAdv ate only 1.5 hours apart and both serve the NYC/Philly markets. Canada’s Wonderland and Darien Lake are about 2 hours apart. Knotts and Magic Mountain anywhere else would be a worry but….LA.

But the only way to really see cannibalization would be to see the data over years of where passes are bought from and where they end up going.

But really working hard to differentiate the parks is important. That’s why I brought forth a concept of making a few parks (namely Dorney) about DC Rogues Gallery rather than SFGAdv having primarily hero’s themed attractions. So even from a non-park goer, there’s a difference in that marketing.

 

[Mushroom]

I agree mostly with what you are saying there @Mushroom - but just of note, Dorney and SFGAdv ate only 1.5 hours apart and both serve the NYC/Philly markets. Canada’s Wonderland and Darien Lake are about 2 hours apart. Knotts and Magic Mountain anywhere else would be a worry but….LA.

I still have to disagree. 1.5 hours is a huge difference. That’s up to an additional 3 hours of driving round-trip. If a family used to be content driving 1 hour to get to Dorney, would they really be content driving 2.5 hours to get to SFGAdv instead? And then driving 2.5 more hours back home? I doubt it.

I think folks are dramatically overestimating consumers’ willingness to change their behavior. I believe most would not simply start going to another park at the frequency they visited their old park, but rather would just switch to a closer, more convenient way to spend their entertainment dollars.

 

[warfelg]

1.5 hours is a huge difference. That’s up to an additional 3 hours of driving round-trip. If a family used to be content driving 1 hour to get to Dorney, would they really be content driving 2.5 hours to get to SFGAdv instead? And then driving 2.5 more hours back home? I doubt it.

Just for reference, growing up in Lancaster PA, Dorney was 1.5 hours away, SFGAdv 2 hours. And SFGAdv (since I made that trip a lot) is actually an easier ride because the Turnpike is more friendly and has more stops than 222 up through coal country. So knowing they could get one pass and go to both, yea it’s actually likely there would be a few more trips to SFGadv.

From Philly the trip is about the same, but having to deal with the Schykill Expressway is a major PITA. But for many Philadelphia people (My wife is from there) Dorney tended to be the go to because it was more affordable.

EDIT - And I say this as someone who split lived Bristol CT and Lancaster PA for a year and would go back and forth with my parents every weekend after and before school - that drive up through Allentown SUCKS and come summer we would purposely cut over to Jersey at times because ti was a better drive.

 

[Riboflavenus]

Surely the more profitable solution then is to invest in differentiating the parks, not making the short-sighted decision to shutter one?

I also question whether there’s a data to suggest that parks that are relatively close in proximity truly cannibalize a significant proportion of each other’s audience. With the exception of SFDK and CGA, there aren’t really any parks that share the same exact population centers (and the SFDK-CGA situation will naturally resolve itself with CGA’s unrelated closure).

The next closest pairing is probably KD and SFA, but if you take them as an example, the argument of cannibalization unravels quickly. SFA uniquely serves the Baltimore/greater Maryland area, while only KD serves Richmond and southern/western Virginia. The idea that closing one of these parks would cause most of these guests to just switch to the other park is absurd. They will either go to a closer competitor (e.g. BGW) or they will just not go to a park anymore. Hardly anyone is driving 3+ hours to a park when they used to drive 30 minutes to get to one.

For what it's worth, which may be absolutely nothing, since it's purely anecdotal observation, I frequently see a lot of Maryland plates at KD, yet on the handful of times I've been to SFA, i don't see a requisite number of VA plates. And I'm willing to bet the land SFA is sitting on is worth a lot of money to the right developer-

 

[warfelg]

For what it's worth, which may be absolutely nothing, since it's purely anecdotal observation, I frequently see a lot of Maryland plates at KD, yet on the handful of times I've been to SFA, i don't see a requisite number of VA plates. And I'm willing to bet the land SFA is sitting on is worth a lot of money to the right developer-

It might be but sadly last thing we need in this area is another development of “entry level” townhomes in the $600-700k area in a market that is flooded with them. (I may or may not be bitter about our current position in thinking about a single family house and there’s nothing affordable, in a decent neighborhood, that’s even remotely move in ready)

 

[rswashdc]

For what it's worth, which may be absolutely nothing, since it's purely anecdotal observation, I frequently see a lot of Maryland plates at KD, yet on the handful of times I've been to SFA, i don't see a requisite number of VA plates. And I'm willing to bet the land SFA is sitting on is worth a lot of money to the right developer-

This is why it's hard to see them making major investments into SFA. Most likely any customer gains from an SFA investment perspective will partially come at the expense of KD revenue (and of course HP), which makes investments less attractive - e.g. they see 50% of the investment return they would have seen pre-merger.

It's the same problem at Dorney. Major investments there are going to cannibalize customers from GAdv, making them hard to justify.

It's why for years there's been fairly limited investment at MA. It just pulls customers from CP instead of driving much new revenue.

 

[warfelg]

This is why it's hard to see them making major investments into SFA. Most likely any customer gains from an SFA investment perspective will partially come at the expense of KD revenue (and of course HP), which makes investments less attractive - e.g. they see 50% of the investment return they would have seen pre-merger.

That said, I kinda like @Zachary ’s proposal for SFA of over emphasize the growth of the water park, minimize the dry park, and do something else (shopping district) with the other land. Makes it different if KD is the big dry park and SFA is the big water park.

 

[rswashdc]

That said, I kinda like @Zachary ’s proposal for SFA of over emphasize the growth of the water park, minimize the dry park, and do something else (shopping district) with the other land. Makes it different if KD is the big dry park and SFA is the big water park.

I think the play for SFA is dump most the dry park except a small handful of attractions, make the water park a destination type water park, and create some kind of KD/SFA ticket and pass. This doesn't hurt their other parks and may draw away from HP during the summer for the MD/Southern PA.

 

[warfelg]

I think the play for SFA is dump most the dry park except a small handful of attractions, make the water park a destination type water park, and create some kind of KD/SFA ticket and pass. This doesn't hurt their other parks and may draw away from HP during the summer for the MD/Southern PA.

Oh it absolutely would for that part alone. And it puts HP in a corner with their water park. Expand and kill more rides? Move rides to make a 2nd gate? Or just give in on the water park front?

 

[GAcoaster]

Hershey announced a separate gate waterpark (Cocoa Beach) years ago and never built it, opting to go with the included water park instead. Theoretically they still could build that, especially with adding more hotel space and wanting to extend people’s stays.

 

[warfelg]

Hershey announced a separate gate waterpark (Cocoa Beach) years ago and never built it, opting to go with the included water park instead. Theoretically they still could build that, especially with adding more hotel space and wanting to extend people’s stays.

God I forgot about Cocoa Beach!

But yea. New SF can really put the screws to Hershey if they wanted to by positioning Dorney as a family friendly park (despite the current coaster collection), SFGAdv as the thrill park, SFA as the water park. Meanwhile let each park still offer some of the other but it’s not the priority.

 

[GAcoaster]

More than anything they need to keep offering seasonal festivals and events to keep passholders coming back throughout the year. That gives people reasons to visit multiple local parks multiple times.