I also really like SF rewards program for pass members and find it far more easy to use and follow then what Kings Dominion currently uses.
News Cedar Fair Merges with Six Flags
- Thread starter horsesboy
- Start date
Yes. DC is a big draw if the right company built the attractions. Six Flags has never built a DC Comic attraction on the level of Universal or Disney. Come to think of it, they only had one indoor DC Comic attraction and that the The Dark Knight indoor-coaster. They haven't even built any type of Flash ride that is a record breaker in any speed category. Their newest Flash attraction is not even 80 or 70mph at the least. Sea World Parks & Entertainment would have done a much better job with the DC Comic brand.
Just think of all the different DC titles that have been popular in the comics. Arkham, Suicide Squad, Titans, Shazam & Black Adam, etc. Nothing for 20 years. Most of their rides just feature the DC Comic name with a few props/picture bio in the line queue of the themed character. Each and every Six Flags could have had a unique DC Comic experience, but the company chose to build the same ride at 4 or 5 different parks, but with a different DC Comic character name at the ride entrance. On that same note, I can't say that Cedar Fair would invest much in highly themed comic book attractions, when they've always been more invested in their ride's unique elements. Sea World Park & Entertainment isn't too bad, as they attend to perfect a single theme that their park's are built around.
With that thought in mind, I'd be willing to roll the dice that Cedar Fair could design an incredible B&M Wing Coaster with a Batman theme. Something that speaks to the character/theme personality. I see this as a great opportunity for their smaller parks to pull in bigger crowds if Cedar Fair's remaining board is willing to do this. Park's like World's of Fun, Kings Dominion and Carowinds have a significant amount of space for this type of expansion. All within the respect to each other, could receive an experience different than it's counterparts.
The Saudi park is "in partnership" with Six Flags. I guess the merger will largely unaffected the progress in building the park since it's really the Saudi's project, but I wonder if any ripples will make its way across the world.
There is, in fact, a wing coaster coming. As the Volcano replacement. Just not with a Batman theme.
Imagine if they went all out and used the hundreds of acres CF owns on the other side of the tracks at KD to make a DC-inspired land, complete with immersive rides, a hotel, and really awesome theming. You could come out of a bat cave-themed tunnel underneath the tracks (probably located behind the amphitheater to the west, and the campground to the south) and be in a little DC enclave. To save some money, they could repurpose some rides from CFA or other parks that might face the axe with the merger. I know it'll never happen, but it would be pretty awesome.
Not yet! Add batman a year later and you market the same ride as new 2 years in a row!
It's a great idea on paper but I have strong feeling that the combined company is going to be heavily focused on debt consolidation and paying it down to avoid repeating the mistakes that led to Geauga Lake. Probably even more so the case if the economy continues to slow. I think people need to be very realistic with expectations not not expect more then a handful of major capital investment each year company wide going forward after the currently planned and budgeted one are rolled out.
Don't get me wrong, never in my wildest dreams do I believe anything close this this would ever happen. But KD is sitting on so much unused land, and i'll always wish that they'd do something huge with it.
There really is now way to anticipate what is going to be in the works after 2025 at this point in time. I'm not sure if Capex approaches will become more "Cedar Fair" like or "Six Flags" like or some sort of strange hybrid or something completely different. I have to wonder if things like Cedar Fairs disdain for Intamin and RMC, and Six Flags disdain for Gerstlauer are going to be significant within this new company. Six Flags has a strong relationship with RMC ostensibly so I could see that one being one Cedar Fair will need to reconcile on. Gerstlauer and Intamin are interesting, Six Flags JUST tapped Intamin for the Ultra Surf at SFOG. We've only seen Cedar Fair use Gerstlauer once recently for Hangtime (and the Sky Roller at CW but I digress). Six Flags actually just tapped Gerstlauer to send them a new Iron Rattler train so maybe that has improved?
For context, Six Flags was famously known for working with RMC ever since the success of New Texas Giant in 2011. Unfortunately, there hasn't been another RMC coversion after Twisted Cyclone, which may be a concern of it being a dying breed. This also ties in of how Cedar Fair had a bad relationship with RMC, which also raises concerens of projects that Six Flags plans on doing such as RMC Boss at SFSTL, Roar at SFA, and a Raptor for SFGAm and possibly one for SFOG as well due to many requests from fans for one to be built may be cancelled. I don't think this will happen and will continue to take place under this leadership.
That would be a dream come true. Dollywood is the gold standard of how to run a theme park these days.
I don't know why Herschend, or anyone else, would want Kings Dominion.
Kings Dominion is a park that has long faced major headwinds. Staffing is incredibly difficult since the base of locals to pull from in Doswell is basically non-existent, its nearest city is fought over heavily by a very strong, nearly equal-distant competitor, its land is worthless, it failed to manage year round operations, and its water park can't be separated into a separate gate without an incredibly significant infrastructure investment. And remember, Herschend, at their scale, is locked out of many of the chain-level cost optimizations that Cedar Fair currently employs. A Kings Dominion under Herschend would immediately be more expensive to run than a Kings Dominion under Cedar Fair—meaning the path to profitability is steeper under Herschend than Cedar Fair.
Obviously, if the new Six Flags is on the ropes and trying to offload parks fast, maybe they're offering some great deals—but, presumably, they have a lot of levers to pull before resorting to a move like firesale-ing Kings Dominion (read: off-load old Six Flags management contract parks, dumping portions of unused land at some of their larger properties, selling the land under SFA, Dorney, and/or a Schlitterbahn or two, etc). If new SF gets to the point of providing deep discounts on the likes of Kings Dominion, I think something will have had to have gone very, very wrong. Not impossible, but I don't think it's probable.
Almost any park operator would likely be interested in a great deal for a park like Kings Dominion, but the world in which great deal would be offered seems unlikely. Maybe new Six Flags could be open to a not bad deal without the company having to face major, imminent issues. I think that, in order to justify taking a not bad deal for the property, an operator would have to be particularly enthused by the prospect of running Kings Dominion—presumably because they've identified ways in which the property could be under leveraged by current management. Unfortunately, I don't think there's another operator out there currently salivating over the thought of managing Kings Dominion. I honestly don't think the property's path to notably greater returns than are currently realized (and, hence, would already be baked into a sale price) is clear at all. Most all of the normal ways chains would try to improve a parks' revenue (cap-ex, marketing/ticketing improvements, seasonal events, operating calendar extension, splitting the property into multiple gates, implementing onsite lodging, etc) have already been implemented, tried, or considered for Kings Dominion. I'm just not convinced that there's significant meat left on the bone for any other park chain to be super enthusiastic about the property.
Okay, well, on second thought, I take that last bit back. There is one major theme park operator who is absolutely salivating over the dream of getting their grimy little hands around Kings Dominion's neck. That is the absolute nightmare scenario though. In fact, perhaps that's the best reason to hope Kings Dominion, as a single park, never goes on the market. There is probably an enthused bidder waiting at the door to whom Kings Dominion would represent a uniquely significant investment opportunity—but I assure you, it's not the kind of investment into Kings Dominion that anyone—sans SEAS shareholders—is looking for.
Basically, to put it more succinctly, most any chain would pick up a great deal on any park. New Six Flags probably isn't going to be far enough up a creek to offer great deals though. For someone to offer a solid enough deal for new Six Flags to sell ammo to their enemy, it would likely require an operator who sees a path to very significant upside. It's unclear what that potential vision could look like, but it would likely take a lot for the upside to match the existing and innate value in the transaction for SEAS.
Lastly, I'll add this footnote. I'm one of a relatively small number of thoosies who has actually been to a non-flagship Herschend property (Wild Adventures). I do certainly believe Herschend is one of the best operators in the business and I've enjoyed every one of my visits to their properties. That said, Herschend ownership doesn't just magically turn parks into Dollywood or Silver Dollar City. Both of those properties are long-established pillars of their respective, existing tourism hotspots with extra elements that make them especially compelling (Dolly for DW, the Cave for SDC, the locally-relevant craftsmen and historic, coal fired trains at both parks, etc). If Herschend did end up with scraps from this merger, I assure you that those new Herschend parks would look and behave a whole lot more like Wild Adventures or Kentucky Kingdom than one of the two beloved Herschend flagships.
Kings Dominion is a park that has long faced major headwinds. Staffing is incredibly difficult since the base of locals to pull from in Doswell is basically non-existent, its nearest city is fought over heavily by a very strong, nearly equal-distant competitor, its land is worthless, it failed to manage year round operations, and its water park can't be separated into a separate gate without an incredibly significant infrastructure investment. And remember, Herschend, at their scale, is locked out of many of the chain-level cost optimizations that Cedar Fair currently employs. A Kings Dominion under Herschend would immediately be more expensive to run than a Kings Dominion under Cedar Fair—meaning the path to profitability is steeper under Herschend than Cedar Fair.
Obviously, if the new Six Flags is on the ropes and trying to offload parks fast, maybe they're offering some great deals—but, presumably, they have a lot of levers to pull before resorting to a move like firesale-ing Kings Dominion (read: off-load old Six Flags management contract parks, dumping portions of unused land at some of their larger properties, selling the land under SFA, Dorney, and/or a Schlitterbahn or two, etc). If new SF gets to the point of providing deep discounts on the likes of Kings Dominion, I think something will have had to have gone very, very wrong. Not impossible, but I don't think it's probable.
Almost any park operator would likely be interested in a great deal for a park like Kings Dominion, but the world in which great deal would be offered seems unlikely. Maybe new Six Flags could be open to a not bad deal without the company having to face major, imminent issues. I think that, in order to justify taking a not bad deal for the property, an operator would have to be particularly enthused by the prospect of running Kings Dominion—presumably because they've identified ways in which the property could be under leveraged by current management. Unfortunately, I don't think there's another operator out there currently salivating over the thought of managing Kings Dominion. I honestly don't think the property's path to notably greater returns than are currently realized (and, hence, would already be baked into a sale price) is clear at all. Most all of the normal ways chains would try to improve a parks' revenue (cap-ex, marketing/ticketing improvements, seasonal events, operating calendar extension, splitting the property into multiple gates, implementing onsite lodging, etc) have already been implemented, tried, or considered for Kings Dominion. I'm just not convinced that there's significant meat left on the bone for any other park chain to be super enthusiastic about the property.
Okay, well, on second thought, I take that last bit back. There is one major theme park operator who is absolutely salivating over the dream of getting their grimy little hands around Kings Dominion's neck. That is the absolute nightmare scenario though. In fact, perhaps that's the best reason to hope Kings Dominion, as a single park, never goes on the market. There is probably an enthused bidder waiting at the door to whom Kings Dominion would represent a uniquely significant investment opportunity—but I assure you, it's not the kind of investment into Kings Dominion that anyone—sans SEAS shareholders—is looking for.
Basically, to put it more succinctly, most any chain would pick up a great deal on any park. New Six Flags probably isn't going to be far enough up a creek to offer great deals though. For someone to offer a solid enough deal for new Six Flags to sell ammo to their enemy, it would likely require an operator who sees a path to very significant upside. It's unclear what that potential vision could look like, but it would likely take a lot for the upside to match the existing and innate value in the transaction for SEAS.
Lastly, I'll add this footnote. I'm one of a relatively small number of thoosies who has actually been to a non-flagship Herschend property (Wild Adventures). I do certainly believe Herschend is one of the best operators in the business and I've enjoyed every one of my visits to their properties. That said, Herschend ownership doesn't just magically turn parks into Dollywood or Silver Dollar City. Both of those properties are long-established pillars of their respective, existing tourism hotspots with extra elements that make them especially compelling (Dolly for DW, the Cave for SDC, the locally-relevant craftsmen and historic, coal fired trains at both parks, etc). If Herschend did end up with scraps from this merger, I assure you that those new Herschend parks would look and behave a whole lot more like Wild Adventures or Kentucky Kingdom than one of the two beloved Herschend flagships.
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With coorporate being moved to Charlotte, could it mean that both Carrowinds and SFOG might see larger investments in the forseable future? I say that because of how both Charlotte and Atlanta are one of the fastest growing cities in America
Carowinds is already the South East flagship of Cedar Fair and I assume the same will remain true under the new Six Flags. Given Six Flags Over Georgia's domination over the major, growing Atlanta metro, I think you can expect it to continue to be treated tremendously by the new chain as well. Basically, in my estimation, Carowinds will be to Six Flags Over Georgia what Cedar Point is to Kings Island.
I don't think any of it is really the result of where the chain's headquarters is located though. These parks are just well-positioned, well-known, regional institutions near strong cities where they enjoy clear and largely uncontested market dominance.
I don't think any of it is really the result of where the chain's headquarters is located though. These parks are just well-positioned, well-known, regional institutions near strong cities where they enjoy clear and largely uncontested market dominance.
That honestly sounds amazing since SFOG it's my home park. In previous years like in the Jim Reed Anderson era, they were known for their work on flat rides instead of roller coasters in between the span of Dare Devil Dive and Twisted Cyclone. That'll likely change with the new leadership with larger investments. Some might even say that it'll be the new Fiesta Texas by being a prototype test ground when investing the park.
I stand on the opinion of KD > Carowinds. Yes they have a great top 4 but no log flume/rapids/chute the chute, and then the supporting coaster cast is..........I may never ride any of the 10 coasters at Carowinds that are not the top 4 currently ever again. Maybe Nighthawk if I have Fast Lane and I'm next to it and there are many many many hours left in the day, and I'm well hydraI am walking to Fury 325. Sorry, it's just how my legs work there. 5 points of interest, the top 4, and Harmony Hall.
Both companies are highly in debt. Six Flags has no cash at this time. They have more outstanding invoices than cash.
It’s just like a bad marriage. The lower denominator always seems to bring the higher one down to their level versus the opposite.
Tell me you have no idea how corporate finance works without telling me you have no idea how corporate finance works.
Cedar Fair has already largely invested in Carowinds and the park suffers from low attendance most of the season. I don’t see them dropping much more money into this park.