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[CoasterTalkBob]

Ummm... To unpack, even without direct data collected via cookies/beacons/pixels a majority of the ad platforms out there have algorithms running to try to tailor ads to you based on whatever interest groups it can link you to based on whatever digital behaviors they can access.

If you don't accept any form of their personalization, you'll see a bunch of random ads for topics either you're completely indifferent to or absolutely not a fan of.

That is far different than the actual advertisers targeting tactics, budgets, and creative messages that you're referring to with the political comment - the technology opens up for that, sure, but it also opens up for me to see ads related to cooking, coasters, or something I may actually be interested in vs. pharmaceuticals or whatever

You are completely missing my point. That tailoring is exactly the problem because it feeds into the political divide.... if it tags you blue then it feeds you blue, if it tags you red, then it feeds you red.

What you are really missing is that this is not AT ALL about the ads for me.... it's the stuff going on in the background. It's the profiling that is happening that can, and sometimes does, start to manipulate people (regardless of intent). If you want an example there were people that were arrested or at least questioned by police because they happened to be near the capital during the Jan 6th insurrection. They literally used the meta data that you are arguing as good to profile people based on location data.

Again, I don't care the slightest bit about the ads.... I care about the invasion of my civil liberties. I know most people don't care but this technology is progressing and it's going to get to the point where everyone regrets it if people don't actually start taking a stand against it soon.

 

[Nicole]

For what it is worth, the ads they show me are rarely of interest and I wouldn’t click on them, regardless. I wouldn't find targeted marketing an improvement, even if it worked.

 

[Jonesta6]

You are completely missing my point. That tailoring is exactly the problem because it feeds into the political divide.... if it tags you blue then it feeds you blue, if it tags you red, then it feeds you red.

What you are really missing is that this is not AT ALL about the ads for me.... it's the stuff going on in the background. It's the profiling that is happening that can, and sometimes does, start to manipulate people (regardless of intent). If you want an example there were people that were arrested or at least questioned by police because they happened to be near the capital during the Jan 6th insurrection. They literally used the meta data that you are arguing as good to profile people based on location data.

Again, I don't care the slightest bit about the ads.... I care about the invasion of my civil liberties. I know most people don't care but this technology is progressing and it's going to get to the point where everyone regrets it if people don't actually start taking a stand against it soon.

Ok, how does cell phone triangulation data they obtained, or standard IP address connectivity data as a subset of location data, have anything to do with the general concept of ad personalization based on browser-collected data points fed into an ad platform?

Don't think for an instant that your digital behavior is a constitutional protected civil liberty - read the terms of service and/privacy policy of any digital service you use and you'll more than likely find that by simply visiting you're providing some kind of data that can be used for marketing or other purposes.

Also, you're still confusing the mechanisms of how modern ad technology works with the advertisers themselves. The platforms may not actually label you with any political affiliation, but you can be sure that political advertisers are going to have highly sophisticated ad targeting based on ideal personas (likely market research generated) that would then be paired to targeting options each ad platform provides.

Again, even if you don't allow any ad tracking, these platforms will work to try to pattern match your digital behavior, and could potentially add you to the group receiving such ads - your choice to not share, sure, but it's not going to change the possibility of you seeing certain ads either way.

 

[CoasterTalkBob]

Ok, how does cell phone triangulation data they obtained, or standard IP address connectivity data as a subset of location data, have anything to do with the general concept of ad personalization based on browser-collected data points fed into an ad platform?

Because when you're talking about an ad platform like FB you're also talking about a major data collection player in general. This isn't just about ads, remember? While there may be ad platforms that focus only on ads many of those same platforms sell, or at least share, data to others which is then combined and the profile deepens.

Don't think for an instant that your digital behavior is a constitutional protected civil liberty - read the terms of service and/privacy policy of any digital service you use and you'll more than likely find that by simply visiting you're providing some kind of data that can be used for marketing or other purposes.

You're right regarding terms of service and this is a serious problem. People, including myself, are agreeing to terms that we would not agree to had we fully understood the ramifications of said terms. ToS is a major way that companies take advantage of the public because they know people don't read them. However, there are also sites collecting my data that I never agreed to any terms of service for and Facebook is a major culprit here. Facebook's trackers are on websites all over the place and they are collecting that data whether I like it or not -- hence why I use privacy extensions. Regarding Civil Liberties, maybe my behavior isn't protected but the right to privacy certainly is and many platforms are crossing that line.

Also, you're still confusing the mechanisms of how modern ad technology works with the advertisers themselves. The platforms may not actually label you with any political affiliation, but you can be sure that political advertisers are going to have highly sophisticated ad targeting based on ideal personas (likely market research generated) that would then be paired to targeting options each ad platform provides.

The political comment was only an example as to a real world scenario as to how it is affecting society. My point is that the profiles that are being built do contain things like this. Again, this isn't about ads, this is about the data..... even if I were to agree that all of the data collected was being used solely for advertising that's still data that won't ever be put back and as time goes on it can be used by people with various different motives.

Again, even if you don't allow any ad tracking, these platforms will work to try to pattern match your digital behavior, and could potentially add you to the group receiving such ads - your choice to not share, sure, but it's not going to change the possibility of you seeing certain ads either way.

Again, this isn't about ads. And I am aware that things are being collected but I'm not just going to give up and say since they are taking certain amounts of data I'm going to just let them take it all without a fight. But I will tell you this.... I rarely see any ads that are targeted to me with the exception of on a site like Amazon where they have their own data on me. It's not a lost cause like you seem to want to convince people of. There is some control that we have over this and that starts with using private searches, not using Facebook, using privacy protecting extensions, etc.

 

[Jonesta6]

I rarely see any ads that are targeted to me with the exception of on a site like Amazon where they have their own data on me.

Not to completely ignore everything else you wrote, but this actually proves my point - by you choosing to not intentionally share data, the ad platforms are still trying to use whatever data that is present and match you to a targeting group - the probability that the advertisers align with your interests varies but is not super high.

even if I were to agree that all of the data collected was being used solely for advertising that's still data that won't ever be put back and as time goes on it can be used by people with various different motives.

Honestly, I'm curious what possible bad thing besides mismatched ads could happen?

We know there are bad actors out there with misinformation campaigns, but they're likely actually targeting with broad strokes vs. using any collected data (best to hit as many 'targets' as cheaply as possible - the more targeted, the less people reached for higher costs). And ad platforms (Google is far more omnipresent and invasive that Facebook/Meta, btw) generally don't provide any collected details to advertisers but instead provide various categorical targeting options with which the data is used to support.

And how would one take digital information and 'put it back' if there was such a desire?


Edit: btw, please don't take anything I've written as being for or against the idea of digital data collection, I'm merely trying to understand where we're disconnected as my knowledge comes from experience but doesn't mean I'm actually right.

 

[CoasterTalkBob]

Not to completely ignore everything else you wrote, but this actually proves my point - by you choosing to not intentionally share data, the ad platforms are still trying to use whatever data that is present and match you to a targeting group - the probability that the advertisers align with your interests varies but is not super high.

But this is a different topic. I'm not a fan of Amazon keeping profiles like this but it's a different thing for them to use my purchase history from their own site to give me suggestions as opposed to collecting data from my browsing around the web. That being said, Amazon is still a huge concern of mine.

Honestly, I'm curious what possible bad thing besides mismatched ads could happen?

To start, there are absolutely no regulations to what these companies can do with the data they collect. There are no laws in place and even where there are opt-out requirements they are so complicated that it can be nearly impossible to stop the collection. No one is watching over them either.... if someone abuses your data your recourse is limited (if you have any at all).

We know there are bad actors out there with misinformation campaigns, but they're likely actually targeting with broad strokes vs. using any collected data (best to hit as many 'targets' as cheaply as possible - the more targeted, the less people reached for higher costs). And ad platforms (Google is far more omnipresent and invasive that Facebook/Meta, btw) generally don't provide any collected details to advertisers but instead provide various categorical targeting options with which the data is used to support.

It could be any number of things. And this isn't the ad company it's self that I'm mostly concerned about but others who receive my profile either by buying it or as some part of an agreement (data brokers). Greed is a powerful thing. There's already been the Cambridge Analytica issue but that's kind of minor when you think about all of the things that could occur. It could come down to straight up blackmail whether it be by an employee of a company, a company it's self, or even a government entity. It seems that your focus keeps coming back to a broad scope when the reality is that the profiles being created are VERY specific and can be used in very bad ways -- whether we've seen that yet or not.

And how would one take digital information and 'put it back' if there was such a desire?

Exactly.... you can't. Once the data is collected it's out there and you'll never get it back.

Edit: btw, please don't take anything I've written as being for or against the idea of digital data collection, I'm merely trying to understand where we're disconnected as my knowledge comes from experience but doesn't mean I'm actually right.

I recommend a documentary called The Great Hack (https://www.netflix.com/Title/80117542) which is a good overview of some of the concerns I have and examples of what has already happened (it has a focus on Cambridge Analytica). John Oliver also dedicated an episode (

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Direct Link to Embedded Media Source to this just a couple weeks ago that's pretty interesting -- it touches on a lot of what you know but progresses to a pretty humorous example of how things can be used.