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RE: General Public or Lowest Common Denominator Debate

Atlantis pid=91780 dateline=1391796225 said:
I understand you are new to the themepark fanverse and there most certainly is a ton to learn about it. It has taken me years to learn properly how things work and are affected. I thank you, however, for forming your own arguments and no relying on others to make your case for as others do here.

I appreciate that. I have no problem expressing my opinions as I have so many to share :D
And I AM new to the themepark fanverse. Since I was 16, I've worked 14-16 hour days(I'm normally up around 2am), so I've had very little time do anything extracurricular. While it has gotten me ahead in life, I've learned that life isn't all about money, it's more about experiences. I'll save you all the details, but my hope for the end of this year and into next year is to slow down a little in life and start traveling to visit some other parks and just to see the country in general. I want my daughter/son to experience more things then I had the chance to when I was growing up.


Atlantis pid=91780 dateline=1391796225 said:
The point of my argument that you are missing is BGW is lacking in quality.. Change is not a bad thing so long as quality is maintained. Quality is what brings guests in and keeps them coming in. The large number of APs cancelled in WBurg by locals wreaks an be blamed on nothing but a loss of quality. A loss of quality also hinders in-park spending greatly.

While I'm not completely sold on the idea that BG lacks enough in quality to make that big of a difference, I can definitely see your point. I also agree that too little quality will ruin a business. I was going to say this another way, but your response has cause me to rephrase it:

Do you think that it's really fair to compare BGW and USF? That area is like the theme park capital and they have major draws because of the movie themes. While BG has great rides, they are basically all no names.

Also, Do you have any idea of the attendance numbers for 2013? If not, when do those come out?

Just to add, USF is at the top of my "To go" list, I'm not sure why, but it looks like a fun place to visit. I have seen tons of advertisements for the park(they were on Celebrity Apprentice), so they are doing a great job there as well.


Applesauce said:
I understand wanting to get your money's worth of something before replacing it, but redoing a show 3 times doesn't say "We're keeping this to save money, until we can replace it with something new." it says "This is staying and you're gonna like it."

While I do like Entwined(more because my daughter likes it), You bring up a very valid point and I can't say I disagree with it. (Y)
 
RE: General Public or Lowest Common Denominator Debate

Matt Conkle pid=91809 dateline=1391813022 said:
I appreciate that. I have no problem expressing my opinions as I have so many to share :D
And I AM new to the themepark fanverse. Since I was 16, I've worked 14-16 hour days(I'm normally up around 2am), so I've had very little time do anything extracurricular. While it has gotten me ahead in life, I've learned that life isn't all about money, it's more about experiences. I'll save you all the details, but my hope for the end of this year and into next year is to slow down a little in life and start traveling to visit some other parks and just to see the country in general. I want my daughter/son to experience more things then I had the chance to when I was growing up.

At least your opinions are well based and worded and not loads of drivel as so many seem to be! It is a fun game to get involved but is rather wild once you start seeing the politics and behind the scenes items. It really takes a strong will to hear some thing and not let it bother you but so much. Good on you for wanting to see the world and experience many items. Doing so at a young age certainly will make them open to more things later on in life!

Matt Conkle pid=91809 dateline=1391813022 said:
While I'm not completely sold on the idea that BG lacks enough in quality to make that big of a difference, I can definitely see your point. I also agree that too little quality will ruin a business. I was going to say this another way, but your response has cause me to rephrase it:

Certainly, the populous in HR knows what they should be getting for their money; military families included. The military families are a tight knit group and if one is not satisfied with heir visit then twenty more families will know. HR is lucking enough to have other quality offerings in the forms of museums and historical locations that opposite what some here believe, kids do like. Now the issue is the quality for the price. The price charged should be commanding a premium product but the product is just not that. If everything across the park was 10%-20% cheaper business would be booming as the price point would be acceptable for what they offer.


Matt Conkle pid=91809 dateline=1391813022 said:
Do you think that it's really fair to compare BGW and USF? That area is like the theme park capital and they have major draws because of the movie themes. While BG has great rides, they are basically all no names.

Most certainly it is fair to compare! Up until recently BGW garnered a large chunk of traveling guests to see their park. BGW was known for its balance of thrills (Alp, Apollo, and even LNM grabbed crowds without them being an ultra fan) and pristine, picturesque landscaping tucked away where you became transported into another time in a world that no longer exists. BGW was the only place that offered that.


Thinking of the Fl parks as some mega item is a large misnomer that a lot really overthink. They are not different than BGW, just set up differently. Universal did not offer quality for many many many years. They shifted their focus to such and numbers are soaring. On the flipside, take a look at the WDW numbers for 2013 Q4. Take careful note of how they claimed "record attendance." The record attendance is seen via MK while the other three are down nearly all around in everything but Gate clicks and that is only due to park hopping. Without park hopping the picture would be even clearer than it is now. Take a stroll through there, look at online eatery reservation systems, and gander at what has been cut while prices have been increased. That is the only thing left propping their numbers up. Even with all the other Parks&Resorts income from cruise, dvc, royalties, and intl parks the division was not even up 6%. Dragging anchor. That last factor is something that can be directly compared to BGW in SEAS.

Matt Conkle pid=91809 dateline=1391813022 said:
Also, Do you have any idea of the attendance numbers for 2013?  If not, when do those come out?

Just numbers I am told. And told to keep it vague for now. TEA is more of estimates and a general guideline. When do they come out? Check the threads here for the history on it. I get more hard numbers than that.


Matt Conkle pid=91809 dateline=1391813022 said:
Just to add, USF is at the top of my "To go" list, I'm not sure why, but it looks like a fun place to visit. I have seen tons of advertisements for the park(they were on Celebrity Apprentice), so they are doing a great job there as well.

As someone who has spent over 100 days (really probably quite a bit more but looking at the exact number would be a bit disheartening) in Orlando in the last three years, and over 85 of them in WDW.... Universal is doing it right. I am scaling back my time in WDW this year in favor of more Disney Cruise trips (which I think flat out is the best vacation on the planet) and more Universal.
 
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RE: General Public or Lowest Common Denominator Debate

Atlantis pid=91814 dateline=1391814725 said:
It is a fun game to get involved but is rather wild once you start seeing the politics and behind the scenes items. It really takes a strong will to hear some thing and not let it bother you but so much.

I think politics adds a whole unseen level to anything, whether personal or business.  And the behind the scenes can be scary.  It's like a magic trick, when you know HOW, it normally seems lame and you can't believe you fell for it.....sometimes knowing the reality, takes away the magic and ruins the whole experience.


Atlantis pid=91814 dateline=1391814725 said:
Just numbers I am told. And told to keep it vague for now. TEA is more of estimates and a general guideline. When do they come out? Check the threads here for the history on it. I get more hard numbers than that.

So based on your knowledge, how far up are the numbers?  :)


Atlantis pid=91814 dateline=1391814725 said:
Disney Cruise trips (which I think flat out is the best vacation on the planet)

My wife an I went on a cruise for our "Late Honeymoon" 7 years after we were married.  I has been our only real trip that we have ever taken, and it was by far one of the best experiences of my life.  No where to be, nothing to do and everything I wanted to eat....I was on cloud nine for 5 days.  I would go twice a year if I could.  I'm really hoping to go again next year.  We went on Carnival, next time we were thinking Royal Caribbean or Disney, glad to hear a recommendation.
 
RE: General Public or Lowest Common Denominator Debate

Matt Conkle pid=91818 dateline=1391816464 said:
sometimes knowing the reality, takes away the magic and ruins the whole experience.

Unless you are like me and just flat out enjoy it some twisted form!


Matt Conkle pid=91809 dateline=1391813022 said:
So based on your knowledge, how far up are the numbers?  :)

All but BGW are really up for SEAS. I have a clearer picture of all park's but BGW's. I word it that way due to the fact that I am being told spending is down down in the Olde Country but unsure as to exactly how much. I do know that the special event attendance was well below target, also.


Matt Conkle pid=91809 dateline=1391813022 said:
My wife an I went on a cruise for our "Late Honeymoon" 7 years after we were married.  I has been our only real trip that we have ever taken, and it was by far one of the best experiences of my life.  No where to be, nothing to do and everything I wanted to eat....I was on cloud nine for 5 days.  I would go twice a year if I could.  I'm really hoping to go again next year.  We went on Carnival, next time we were thinking Royal Caribbean or Disney, glad to hear a recommendation.

The food is unreal. Miracle I did not gain wait on the ones i have been on. I ate at least eight meals a day for sure. With the kids I would go DCL all the way. Most look at the price difference and write it off since it is so much higher. Now that I have been on DCL and seen the differences in quality and service I understand entirely why it is priced higher. The overall QUALITY of the product is just that much better (there's the if you deliver quality then the people will pay thing :-X ) and why I have another booked on it!
 
RE: General Public or Lowest Common Denominator Debate

Atlantis pid=91780 dateline=1391796225 said:
 I thank you, however, for forming your own arguments and no relying on others to make your case for as others do here.

I wouldn't normally go here, but this comment has really been bugging me.  I have never noticed a dearth of opinions on this site, and I am struggling to understand the source of this statement.

I really am not interested in a major debate on the topic, but I did feel the need to throw out a big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
 
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Atlantis pid=91814 dateline=1391814725 said:
TEA is more of estimates and a general guideline.

Well, because we don't know the real numbers, would you say that TEA gives good or bad estimates of numbers? I understand that it could be +-1% or whatever, but if it's off by that amount each year, essential it's the same percentages being used. Is it safe to go off those numbers in debates(for example in this forum)?

One thing I forgot about and I'd like to add to the 2009 numbers is I had a busy lawn service at the time, and in 2009 I lost 6 full weeks of cutting due to the rain. I remember it being a very constant light rain throughout the year. I'm in no way saying that this is the only factor, I'm just pointing out that it could have been a factor in that significant drop.

In case anyone was wondering, here are the rain totals by year...you can see large precip totals for 2010(4.97in) and 2013(6.44in):

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_Williamsburg2N_Williamsburg_VA_January.html
 
Weather can be a factor, and corporate has tried to use that to justify the lower numbers, but on the chart 2009 was really on the low end of things (in fact in it's current 38 year history, there have only been four years with less rain than 2009).  I'm not trying to say you're wrong because six weeks is pretty major for a business to lose, but the park has had attendance grow despite the weather in the past.
One thing to keep in mind for 2009 is that it actually gained more operation time with the addition of CT. Premiering a new seasonal special event that was one of the first in the country should have been huge.  The addition of a few weeks worth of operating days should have increased or at least leveled off attendance compared to the previous year.

I have an honest question for you.  I get everything you're saying with the economy, military, weather, ect ect ect (fun fact: people here have actually blamed the doubters on the forums for low attendance).  However, why shouldn't [font=arial, sans-serif]Occam's razor[/font] apply here?  Why isn't the simplest explanation of "the park is simply a bad business" be the best one?  

I'd like to tell you, and everyone, a story that quite a few people can confirm. Now this is something I've actually wanted to do for a while, but I just put in here for whatever, so nothing personal.  While this story doesn't fit this thread (Does anything really?), I think that it needs to be stated as to why there are so many people here who don't like what the park does but still want to like the park, and we're not hating the park just...because.  As early as spring 2013, I was one of the people who could overlook most things the park did because I still had fun there.  I was all for the sundial, I figured MT was a fluke just like Entwined, and it made sense to me that the park was was going to update because I thought that the core I loved about the park was still there and the last few years were just rough because of the management changes.  Hell, I even said "It's kind of difficult not to have fun at a theme park" to people, and I apologize profusely to whoever I said that to.  Spring 2013 was off to a great start as well, Aquitain looked great and F&W turned out fantastic.  Even Scott's new show, Grape Stompers, fit the park well, which gave me hope that he was finally getting a hold on what fits the park as opposed to putting whatever there.  Then Illuminights happened.  The park was filled with cheap, tacky animals and Killarney Kommotion happened.  That's what told me that the core of the park, the joy of walking around a park with such subtle yet unique beauty, was being changed to whatever the hell management wanted, and it was clear that management thought that being classy was no longer an option.

Now, I had actually enjoyed previous ILN events before.  I preferred the park in it's natural state, but ILN up to 2013 complimented the park well enough.  The animals did not, they were simply put up in the cheapest and random ways possible without anybody stopping to think how'd they actually look compared to the rest of the park.  The shows through 2012, while a bit gaudy at times, I felt had a place at the park because they still fit the old-world nature of the park.  Not only did KK not fit anything the park has ever done before, but due to it's massive scale compared to most ILN shows, resulted in the cancellation of a few other ILN shows, which defeated one of the main draws of ILN to see all these little shows around the park.  It's one thing to put a show that has pop music.  It's another thing to put up a show that has pop music that actually hurts the over all value of the event because it's done in an extremely over-the-top way.  After I saw what they did with ILN, I stopped going nearly as much.  I didn't go again until HoS, and upon seeing how bad management messed that up, decided that I wouldn't be going nearly as much as I have before, despite HoS being my favorite time of the year at the park.

This ultimately opened my eyes to see that not only has the core of the park I and others have enjoyed for so long been disregarded, but management had truly no idea what they were doing.  You see that Scott has a very bad habit of making one or two things huge which causes other things to suffer as a result.  I would love to see Scott succeed at the park because I honestly think he has talent that could benefit the park, but instead of making his talent work for the park (which he managed to do for Grape Stompers), he wants the park to bend to his talent (like with London) or disregards the park when in his shows.  Entwined is a great example of this.  The Festhaus is pretty much the place to eat at the park.  Eating there, however, requires a bit of walking to get your food and go get your seat.  Now the Broadway level lighting of Entwined requires the Festhaus to be very dark.  Now imagine attempting to leave your seat in the dark, make your way to get your food, and then trying to find your group in the dark and navigating the Festhaus benches while holding food and drinks, all in the dark.  Entwined in itself is a rather stimulating show, and those aren't the best when you're trying to eat a meal because you might miss a joke, plot point, character development, or whatever.  Such a show would much better fit for the Royal Palace Theater or even the Globe, but it was placed in the Festhaus instead.  This is Oktoberfest, is a show that is much more simple at it's heart with plenty of light in the Festhaus, but is fun enough to be able to enjoyed while chowing down on a sausage platter.  This kind of "bigger is better" mentality that has hurt the overall experience of the guest has been repeated over and over again.  It's these kinds of decisions that make a lot of us dumbfounded about what the park does.  

tl;dr We have reasons why we don't like what the park is doing.
 
^Adding to the low level lighting of Entwined. Since the built the new stage, I've always felt that I was practically sitting in somebody else's lap when I'm there. The tables are incredibly squished together. And I don't remember it being that way before the new stage or the extensions on the old stage. Yeah the tables were close with the old stage, but it wasn't a "I can't even begin to walk in there because the benches are pressed up next to each other." And if they were, you could easily ask somebody to move a bench so you could get in.

So between the very low lighting, a show that requires you to pay attention to understand what's happening, and tables being on top of each other, I find myself wanting avoid going to the Festhaus.
 
Pretzel Kaiser pid=91930 dateline=1391961836 said:
I have an honest question for you. I get everything you're saying with the economy, military, weather, ect ect ect (fun fact: people here have actually blamed the doubters on the forums for low attendance). However, why shouldn't Occam's razor apply here? Why isn't the simplest explanation of "the park is simply a bad business" be the best one?

The simplest answer MAY apply, I never once said that bad management is not to blame, what I said was (In a nutshell) "I personally don't think it's all bad management, could it be these other factors instead?"

I'm trying to point out that there may be other factors instead of just Scott putting glitter everywhere. See PK, the point of a forum is to discuss and I'm trying to have a discussion about BG not just say I don't like this or I don't like that. I know that I'm not going to change everyone's view, but in order to make an informed decision you need to see/think about all the facts, you have to open your mind to other possibilities. Just saying "I don't like that" doesn't help anyone, explain WHY you don't like it, just like in your above post. You gave great examples of why you don't like Entwined(Low Lighting) and gave reasonable changes that could make it and the park better(Move it to the Globe). That is fantastic constructive criticism. You basically said Entwined itself isn't that bad, but the venue, lighting and other factors ruin the area and the show. Awesome, that makes sense and now I'll look at that next time I'm watching it too see if I agree with your view.

Honestly, all I've ever read was how bad Entwined was, I'm not sure if I've ever read something like you wrote above. Granted, I came to this forum last year, so maybe it was stated before then, but thank you for taking the time to write that, it was a very interesting read.

The beauty of a debate is we don't have to agree on everything, sometimes you sway me and sometimes I sway you and sometimes we both hold firm, there is nothing wrong with that! To me, it's more important to keep the conversation going, so that we can listen to the others opinions/facts and decide if we like their view or not. I mean, what is this place if it's not a place to discuss different view points in a rational way? It would be pretty boring if all we do is agree with one another!
 
That's the thing though, everything I have said in that post has been mentioned before on the forums by lots of other users.  Not every post can or will be paragraphs long as much as I wish (in fact I was pushing for a forum template for threads with only these detailed responses, people didn't go for it though), so there has to be a certain benefit of the doubt given when somebody says something along the lines of "I don't like Entwined", they've made their case in some detail before somewhere else.  While there aren't that many active users on the forum, there is a staggering amount of content, and nobody really expects everybody new to go through everything.  As per any conversation, questions should be asked if you don't fully understand a point of view.  

Let me make you an offer since this is the second time I've given you a detailed response that you've seemed to like.  To attempt to dispel the notion that people simply hate something for no reason, you can ask me for a detailed explanation of why something is disliked and I'll give you a response based on what people have said on the forums, not just me.  Is that fair?

As far as the attendance question, people are willing to give any number of reasons why attendance is down besides poor management, including these very forums.  It feels like the notion is wholly dismissed when every other option is given.  I get that people are still huge fans of the park (well, we all are, but more people show it more positively), but just like it seems like people are willing to bash the park mercilessly, it seems like people are willing to accept that the park is capable of not doing anything wrong.
 
Since we are so off topic, I want to throw out there how sick I am of the perception that you have to pick one of two sides.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am both able to enjoy every trip to the park and able to see where the park could improve.  In fact, I have always been able to identify things that bothered me about the park. The fact that I don't let those things ruin my experience, doesn't make me some kind of mindless sycophant.

In some way I am more critical of the park, because in can't a recall the Golden Years so many people harken back to.  The park, in my opinion, has always had issues.
 
Nic pid=91964 dateline=1392003659 said:
Since we are so off topic, I want to throw out there how sick I am of the perception that you have to pick one of two sides.

That's not the reality of the situation.  There are people who tend to lean one side, but it's very clear that nobody is on one side 100%.  Certain groups of users might associate with each other, but that's about it.
 
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Nic pid=91964 dateline=1392003659 said:
The park, in my opinion, has always had issues.

It has, you're right, but no one has ever said that there were no issues in the past. 

However, there is a difference between a small issue, and a full out disaster.

And I do agree with you, that an issue doesn't ruin my day at the park, but a disaster does. Illuminights was a very big disaster to me so that ruined my day. The horrible care of the shrubbery was an issue that didn't ruin my day at the park, but it did make me worry.

I think the difference here is that when you thank of your day at the park, you think of it very broadly, like "overall it was a good experience." The rest of us break things down specifically like, "This was good... That had an issue... That wasn't good at all..." It doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, it just means we think about things differently, which differs our viewpoint. 

Hope that made sense.
 
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PK, I took your post as a challenge to look at the past threads for comments like you said above.  So I actually read all 47 pages of the Entwined thread, just so I can see how much was said about the lighting. In that reading, I also learned a lot about this forum and the people in it. So, in 47 pages of comments, 3 posts mention the lighting being a problem, only 3.  Also, no where in that thread did you share that opinion about the show.  I think that is what Alantis was saying in his "People talk through others"(nutshell) comment.  You never expressed that anywhere.  Understand I'm not picking on you in particular, just using you as an example.  So, what did I get out of 47 pages of posts:

1. We want This is Oktoberfest back
2. I can't believe they destroyed the TIO stage
3. While there was a fairly mixed review of the show, people liked the first year version better than last years(which surprises me).  

Now, anyone that tried to give an outside view(like I've tried to do) was immediately shot down because (nutshell)"We're super fans and you're just the GP, we know how BG should be ran!"  <- while that was never said, that was the general feeling. 

So, I can tell you reading that thread was pretty painful, before the show even started it was being bashed.  Quite frankly, I don't know if many really even gave it a chance. But to be fair, I did look at the Night Beats thread(which oddly was only 11 pages). And I found it EXTREMELY interesting that nowhere did anyone say "I miss the old stage", "The stage is too big", "I couldn't see my food because of the lighting", "They shouldn't have Broadway show in the Festhaus, they should move it to Globe", "What is this, dinner theater!" any of the other negative things that was said about Entwined even though they are similar productions. I understand that NB was in HOS and Ent was in regular season, but the idea of a production in the Festhaus was the same.  Am I missing something here?

The other thing I noticed was opinions started to change throughout the thread. It was almost like jumping on the bandwagon of opinions(generally to the negative side). There was one person in particular(which will remain unnamed) that flat out "loved" Entwined and had "No problems with it" but then starting having problems with it toward the end and in other threads.  Did something happen between this site(or the people in it) and BGW(or Scott G)?  It kind of comes off as a bitterness toward the park and even more toward him?

I do have to say, that Party Rocker to me seemed to be the voice of reason in that thread and in others I've read. It's almost like he is always defending the park and looking at the topic from a different view.  There are others, but he stands out the most to me.  I just wanted to give him a shout out.
 
Let me say this.... One thing you guys should be clued in on... Which I feel is a large part of your argument, and the discussion currently happening is "You guys never give it a chance, It's instantly bad". A lot of the more "vested" members of this site have some pretty good connections, and not everything we may or may not know is shared on this board for various reasons.

A lot of the time, we know things you don't. We hear chatter from the inside that you don't. We knew verbolten would be a multi-launch coaster WELL before it even happened, WAYYY before the plans leaked... I can't pin-point an exact time period for certain reasons, But you'd be very surprised. Some of us are VERY informed on what's going on, what's happening... and we do get reviews from our sources. We learn about what's happening, who's getting fired, why their getting fired... and we get a pretty well painted picture, albeit a pretty one-sided one from insiders at the park, and it's a pretty tricky balancing game trying to figure out what can be shared and what can't be shared... But it does often times have an effect on our opinions.

Our frustrations with certain shows and decisions are a lot of times ones that we can't share... And you just have to deal with that. Understand that we may not be judging a something for what it is, but rather the politics behind why it is what it is and why it was done the way it was done... And then the fact that it's still bad anyways.


But anyways. To further breakdown the problems with entwined:

It replaced a cast of a show that had been there for years.

There was no reason to replace the show, even if it was old ... It was and is a "mainstay" of BGW. The stage and the Festhaus is regarded to many as the "Holy-Grail" of the Busch Gardens experience. I personally never liked much of the food there, and TIO was boring to me. But I understand it is an essential part of the Busch Gardens Experience. It and the Festhaus stage is to Busch what the castle is to Disney. Imagine if Disney ripped out the castle and made a green one from toilet paper and paper-mache and put glitter all over it... Yeah. It's like that.


The park had two primary icons. Big Ben and London (even though I think its boring and could use a facelift)... And the Festhaus with the rising stage. 

One has already been destroyed... and replaced with a kiddie show, with no real announcement, everything hidden from the public until it was already too late. From what I know, it was done like this on purpose just in case of backlash. Also, the park is currently toying with the possibility of completely annihilating its last "sacred icon" because SOME PEOPLE think that they need to splatter their "taste" over everything in the park. 


A lot of the frustration you feel from the devoted park goers and fans is that in one fell swoop, one man and his team of minions could potentially be responsible for destroying both of these things. 


Entwined was a terrible, terrible show. It is hated because it is truly terrible. I sat with a group of people when it first came out and we laughed uncontrollably at how bad it was. 


Night Beats was actually sounding pretty bad from what I remember early on... It was a 50/50 shot. They nailed it. 
I think alot of the "superfans" would agree with me when I say, you just can't keep clinging on to the past, and if something good comes from things not being how it used to be, we can be happy about it. Night Beats ended up being one of those things.
It's storyline is barely there, and it's more about the costumes and dance numbers. You can completely miss the storyline and enjoy the show as a musical revue, and it's not dumbed down "kiddie" entertainment in a family setting.

Entwined is not that show. Entwined is the show that replaced TIO... And literally, as someone who didn't really enjoy TIO all that much... I can sit through hours of TIO, before I can stomach one full showing of Entwined, knowing that because of politics, ego and disregard for the parks history and it's local season pass holding demographic(Which I believe according to a recent release from the park, actually accounts for an overwhelming portion of their gross), They tore it down for a kiddie show about fairy-tales. I certainly understood the implications of tearing down the stage, even without even having much of a liking for TIO... And I support those who feel it never should have been torn down because it shouldn't have.


I'm just gonna imagine that I'm one of the few people that commented on the lighting for the show, as normally I'm one of the few people who take those things into account. 


I don't agree with the "negative committee" on a lot of things. If a toilet is broken it's not the end of the world for me. The Pompeii sundial kind of killed the theme of the ride for me... But I understand it's not really a bad change, just my preference.

I don't think Fiendsv2 was bad at all. I think the changes kept the show fresh even with all the core story intact. I for one don't want to watch the same exact halloween show every single year. To add in one Justin beiber joke does not kill the whole show, In fact it expands it's audience appeal. Putting beiber's brain in the Monster vs "Fido" was relevant with the times. Changes made the show fresh, While keeping all its traits intact. It was a tad bit raunchier (which I'm DEFINITELY not complaining about), It had some new longer lines... But everything else was still there and for me, it is frustrating to see people complain about what I'd consider a "good change" vs a bad change. I couldnt believe people who lauded the awkward sexual humor last year, complained about too much this year. I had been waiting for an "adultish" HOS show for ages. I grew up in Southern California where halloween shows were ALWAYS NSFC, but, that's besides the point.  My only qualm with v2 was the casting. But again, that's just MY preference. I understand... But then again there wasn't THAT MUCH hate towards fiends v2.





Anyways, MattConkle. I'mma leave how to take this up to you. No one here is negative for the sake of being negative. If people are negative without much reason towards a change... Just think that they might know something you don't and simply can't share it. A lot of the people you see here are single young adults, and the fact the park is dividing their demographics more sharply now is very disheartening to those of us without young ones, and even some of us with kids disagree with the whole "for our kids". You can only ride the 5 coasters, darkastle and maybe pompeii so many times before you start to run out of things to do now. And Entwined was the first big step towards stripping away the all ages approach to everything the park has taken with most of its stuff in the past.


TL;DR Entwined = Barney, Night Beats = Broadway, Glittery, Scooby-Doo, TIO = Shrek
 
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Youhow2 pid=91975 dateline=1392053151 said:
Let me say this.... One thing you guys should be clued in on... Which I feel is a large part of your argument, and the discussion currently happening is "You guys never give it a chance, It's instantly bad". A lot of the more "vested" members of this site have some pretty good connections, and not everything we may or may not know is shared on this board for various reasons.

A lot of the time, we know things you don't. We hear chatter from the inside that you don't. We knew verbolten would be a multi-launch coaster WELL before it even happened, WAYYY before the plans leaked... I can't pin-point an exact time period for certain reasons, But you'd be very surprised. Some of us are VERY informed on what's going on, what's happening... and we do get reviews from our sources. We learn about what's happening, who's getting fired, why their getting fired... and we get a pretty well painted picture, albeit a pretty one-sided one from insiders at the park, and it's a pretty tricky balancing game trying to figure out what can be shared and what can't be shared... But it does often times have an effect on our opinions.

Our frustrations with certain shows and decisions are a lot of times ones that we can't share... And you just have to deal with that. Understand that we may not be judging a something for what it is, but rather the politics behind why it is what it is and why it was done the way it was done... And then the fact that it's still bad anyways.

Thank you for confirming my first thoughts and statements, now I've figured out what this site is: 

This is a forum of cliques that can't/won't allow outsiders in. 

And to extend that to some of the same complaints by others of this forum, there is a lot of negativity on here, but now I understand that the negativity doesn't come from the shows themselves, it comes from the politics of the show/park.  This is why some opinions fluctuate over time, because you're not judging the show, you're judging the management which is something that shouldn't be done in a public forum. It's OK to talk about these things in private, hell I talk about my family all the time, but I would never air our dirty laundry on the internet for the world to see.  As the GP, there is no way for me to know that you're commenting on inside info, so I may take your comments at face value, but because you're an "super fan", I may lend even more gravity to your argument and I may decide not to go to BGW. It's very misleading to someone who stumbles across this site and is very dangerous to the park's reputation.
 
Matthew pid=91967 dateline=1392006040 said:
Nic pid=91964 dateline=1392003659 said:
The park, in my opinion, has always had issues.

It has, you're right, but no one has ever said that there were no issues in the past. 

However, there is a difference between a small issue, and a full out disaster.

And I do agree with you, that an issue doesn't ruin my day at the park, but a disaster does. Illuminights was a very big disaster to me so that ruined my day. The horrible care of the shrubbery was an issue that didn't ruin my day at the park, but it did make me worry.

I think the difference here is that when you thank of your day at the park, you think of it very broadly, like "overall it was a good experience." The rest of us break things down specifically like, "This was good... That had an issue... That wasn't good at all..." It doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, it just means we think about things differently, which differs our viewpoint. 

Hope that made sense.

It made sense, but it is acompletely inaccurate assessment of how I think about the park.

In point of fact, I thought the park that y'all hearken back to with such rose-colored nostalgia had some major issues. For example, I thought some of the theming was painfully two-dimensional and stereotyped. I thought Christmas Town was boring and uninspired its first few years. I could go on.

And this is more of what I was objecting to. There is far too much of an us and them, armed camp attitude going on. Y'all really have no idea how I think, but the universe of regular posters have been arbitrarily broken into either two or three groups, and everyone is rammed into one of those. Ipso facto, I MUST think X way, because I am in Catergory B.

PK: I have read posts that specifically identify people and their opinions based on overly-general and far too rigid categories. You may not think that way, but clearly some people do.

I really prefer not to be stuffed into some group, so that all of my opinions can be easily judged through some pre-fabricated lens. It is over-simplistic corrupts the subtleties of my posts.
 
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Matt Conkle pid=91976 dateline=1392058086 said:
Youhow2 pid=91975 dateline=1392053151 said:
Let me say this.... One thing you guys should be clued in on... Which I feel is a large part of your argument, and the discussion currently happening is "You guys never give it a chance, It's instantly bad". A lot of the more "vested" members of this site have some pretty good connections, and not everything we may or may not know is shared on this board for various reasons.

A lot of the time, we know things you don't. We hear chatter from the inside that you don't. We knew verbolten would be a multi-launch coaster WELL before it even happened, WAYYY before the plans leaked... I can't pin-point an exact time period for certain reasons, But you'd be very surprised. Some of us are VERY informed on what's going on, what's happening... and we do get reviews from our sources. We learn about what's happening, who's getting fired, why their getting fired... and we get a pretty well painted picture, albeit a pretty one-sided one from insiders at the park, and it's a pretty tricky balancing game trying to figure out what can be shared and what can't be shared... But it does often times have an effect on our opinions.

Our frustrations with certain shows and decisions are a lot of times ones that we can't share... And you just have to deal with that. Understand that we may not be judging a something for what it is, but rather the politics behind why it is what it is and why it was done the way it was done... And then the fact that it's still bad anyways.

Thank you for confirming my first thoughts and statements, now I've figured out what this site is: 

This is a forum of cliques that can't/won't allow outsiders in. 

And to extend that to some of the same complaints by others of this forum, there is a lot of negativity on here, but now I understand that the negativity doesn't come from the shows themselves, it comes from the politics of the show/park.  This is why some opinions fluctuate over time, because you're not judging the show, you're judging the management which is something that shouldn't be done in a public forum. It's OK to talk about these things in private, hell I talk about my family all the time, but I would never air our dirty laundry on the internet for the world to see.  As the GP, there is no way for me to know that you're commenting on inside info, so I may take your comments at face value, but because you're an "super fan", I may lend even more gravity to your argument and I may decide not to go to BGW. It's very misleading to someone who stumbles across this site and is very dangerous to the park's reputation.





Wow, that's fairly harsh. I would think you would understand that there are things that just can't be said in a public forum to protect people who give insider info. That's how every single last themepark fansite operates... And this is the only one where people are actually upset that they can't know more. Wow.  It's not about having a clique or anything. I've been away from this site for the better part of a year and have only maintained in contact with one or two people who post regularly, and that's been rather sparse.


If you read my whole statement, you'd see exactly why  entwined specifically is judged the way it is. It's a bad show... however there is more to it. Entwined had strikes against it as soon as it replaced the festhaus stage. It wouldve been one thing if it was a good show... But it's a terrible show. Period. Night Beats is a generally well lauded show from the GP and the "superfans". No one complains about it.

No one is "out to get" entwined. But, as the reason one of the parks most iconic elements was removed, It's extremely disappointing on many many levels. And yes, some of those are political. But that does not remove it from the fact it is an absolutely terrible show. 



Also, the ones who complain the most about the negativity on this site usually aren't as vested in the "theme park fansite" stuff as some of us. Please stick around. Enjoy. Learn. No one is trying to push you away. No one is trying to keep you from learning "goodies" but generally until people know they can trust you, you aren't gonna hear anything other than what's released to the public from this site. If you didnt grow up with and regularly go to the park, you aren't gonna have the same connection to things as people, and if you don't live in this area, you just arent gonna be able to feel the general consensus from the locals about the changes and decisions at the park. 

Attendance is down. Why? It's not because of this board... It's because there is genuinely something wrong happening with the park... And if you would rather play "Mr.Brightside" about what's going on or look at an opposing view, just not to be as negative about it... You are kind of behaving exactly like the park. No one is telling you to join the "Negativity club". People are just saying what's really going on... 

Some of the things I've heard that has gone on this past season was completely heartbreaking. It's terrible. What I've heard from locals, what I've heard from my friends. The park is losing steam from the GP and the "superfans" No one wants to go. It's gotten stale... It's not the same. These are things being said... And while even though I thought HOS was terrible last year... I still enjoyed myself. But there is a reason why I only returned once, and apparently whispers say, attendance was down for all the events last year at the park... while other parks thrived. I still want to have fun at the park, and even the negative things dont disturb my time at the park when I'm there... But I can't help but notice some of these things manifesting... And it pushes me away even further from the park. 

The negativity here is not for the sake of being negative... It's because there is a stench of negativity coming from the park. And people just don't want to see it happen... so they voice their opinion here... one of the only forums they got where they might be heard.

There is nothing against anyone. There is no real personal vendetta here. But there is fact, fiction, and opinion... All this board is, is a mixture of the 3. Stay long enough and you'll find out who is saying what.
 
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