News The King Is Dead: Kingda Ka (& Zumanjaro) Closure & Demolition Confirmed

[The Master]

Yeah, the doomerism around SFGAdv all the sudden is totally unwarranted. The way they are handling this year's attraction bloodbath is clearly unacceptable and the chain should be called on it relentlessly.

That said, I would bet money that, 5 years down the line, it will be crystal clear that Six Flags Great Adventure is one of the new Six Flags' flagship properties on track to the same level of notoriety/quality/reputation/etc as Kings Island or Carowinds at an absolute minimum.

Baring some insane turn of events, Great Adventure's future is, in my assessment, obviously very, very bright.

That is pretty optimistic. The corporation is likely cash strapped after the merger and are relentlessly downsizing and streamlining their parks to reduce cash outflows in order to more quickly recover from the merger expenses. It is doubtful they will have the resources to perform major park rebuilds as their main focus would be paying off the expenses steming from the merger and cutting whatever they deem as overlaps. A big problem with mergers is that they create overlaps that cause market capitalization. This is why with companies that merged together often engage in downsizing to eliminate overlaps to reduce market cannibalization and unneeded outflows

Another issue with the merger is that it has shaken up the pecking order of the parks in each formerly separate chain. We may see a pretty weird new reorder of the park hierarchy as they are recombined into whatever the new pecking order will be. One thing that is likely is that the CF executives still want CP to be the flagship park of the newly combined chain and probably don't want any of the SF parks to share that position with CP.

 

[plighting_engineerd]

I don't understand all of this talk about CF management not wanting parks like SFGAdv to be good due to Cedar Point. They're all under one company now - each park makes the new SF money just the same. Am I missing something?

 

[CoasterAuditor]

One thing that is likely is that the CF executives still want CP to be the flagship park of the newly combined chain and probably don't want any of the SF parks to share that position with CP.

Intentionally sabotaging a publicly traded corporations operating segments out of “favoritism for another one” by disposing of tens of millions in PPE would get them sued by shareholders and is “unlikely.”

The decision to remove a high cost attraction like Kingda Ka is due to “high costs” not “nah man the one in Northern Ohio needs to be the best!” If a new corporate C-suite is less favorable to high maintenance costs and is suddenly in charge of something like this, yeah a call like this isn't THAT hard to make for them if they see it negatively impacting their bottom line.

 

[rswashdc]

I don't understand all of this talk about CF management not wanting parks like SFGAdv to be good due to Cedar Point. They're all under one company now - each park makes the new SF money just the same. Am I missing something?

Having multiple destination parks that are heavily coaster based is likely to just cannibalize from each other in the SF chain. New SF is likely looking at GAdv to compete strongly in its regional markets around PA/NJ/NY, but not pull guests from CP at the same time.

If SF would actually build out theme parks with different and unique experiences then this would be a different story, but having coaster wars amongst their own parks isn't a great strategy.

 

[halfabee]

Intentionally sabotaging a publicly traded corporations operating segments out of “favoritism for another one” by disposing of tens of millions in PPE would get them sued by shareholders and is “unlikely.”

Can't argue with any of that, but today I did find myself wondering if Dick Kinzel, Cedar Fair's former CEO and onetime king of the 90s-00's coaster count war between Cedar Point and SFMM, is quietly grinning at the bizarre contemporary reality of those two onetime alpha-rival parks operating under the same corporate banner.

"Let's see you keep that Guinness world record NOW, Magic Mountain...!"

 

[The Master]

I don't understand all of this talk about CF management not wanting parks like SFGAdv to be good due to Cedar Point. They're all under one company now - each park makes the new SF money just the same. Am I missing something?

They don't want the parks to cannibalize marketshare from each other. This is a problem the company now faces after the merger, overlap.

 

[Zachary]

Even if I grant you that there is some amount of Six Flags market overlap (namely Dorney and to a lesser extent, Six Flags New England), the Philadelphia/New York City market is enormous, Great Adventure still has essentially uncontested reign in the entire state of New Jersey, and Great Adventure is obviously going to be the Six Flags flagship in the North East. Dorney may feel some pain as the lesser, supporting in this relationship, but there's zero reason to think Great Adventure isn't going to be treated INCREDIBLY well by the new Six Flags.

 

[The Master]

Intentionally sabotaging a publicly traded corporations operating segments out of “favoritism for another one” by disposing of tens of millions in PPE would get them sued by shareholders and is “unlikely.”

The decision to remove a high cost attraction like Kingda Ka is due to “high costs” not “nah man the one in Northern Ohio needs to be the best!” If a new corporate C-suite is less favorable to high maintenance costs and is suddenly in charge of something like this, yeah a call like this isn't THAT hard to make for them if they see it negatively impacting their bottom line.

First the segment of the shareholders who are not also the current executives would have to discover this issue, then prove it to win a suit. While corporate managers are bound by law to increase shareholder value in legal ways, they don't aways do so in reality. Its not uncommon for executives and managers to engage in pet projects at the detriment of the shareholders. Remember the Six Flags hair cutter shops LOL. Sometimes the invisible hand fails.

I did not mean to imply KK was being removed out of favoritism. KK was cut out of ruthless cost cutting to help offset the huge expense of the merger itself. All the parks are going to suffer downsizing. What I meant to state is that it is unlikely they want or can rebuild GAdv to a giant scale in the near future to rival or surpass CP due to between paying off the merger and cannibalizing marketshare between the parks. After all, CP is more of a real resort while GAdv is a resort in name only. Executives can easily argue CP is a better park to invest more capital in for higher returns vs GAdv which is a local hangout and babysitter.

Mergers always entail downsizing, sometimes very painful downsizing to help pay off the merger and eliminate overlaps and cannibalization. GAdv will likely be a very lean park for the next few years, at least until the corporation's finances recover from the merger. KK iikely could stand SBNO for a year or more, and GL old spot could just become more preferred parking. I very much doubt some mega super ultra coaster will replace either KK or GL anytime soon. Even that won't address the park's lack of transport and flat rides which do not have high ROI individually. However, the park won't become a true resort without a more rounded stable of attractions than it will soon be reduced to.

Another thing to remember is when companies decide what projects to invest in or reject they often use NPV analysis. Part of the NPV formula requires the use of a discount rate, the projected lifetime expense of the project if its chosen. Often different departments in the same company are assigned different discount rates for math reasons to prevent myopia. If the entire company used the same discount rate for every department it would cause major problems that are too complex to explain here. However, the use of different discount rates often leads to corporate politics and infighting issues as managers try to argue for more favorable discount rates for their pet projects. I do not know if individual parks in the chain are assigned their own discount rate or they all use the same rate for the entire chain for deciding which projects to invest in.

 

[RDL]

That is pretty optimistic. The corporation is likely cash strapped after the merger and are relentlessly downsizing and streamlining their parks to reduce cash outflows in order to more quickly recover from the merger expenses. It is doubtful they will have the resources to perform major park rebuilds as their main focus would be paying off the expenses steming from the merger and cutting whatever they deem as overlaps. A big problem with mergers is that they create overlaps that cause market capitalization. This is why with companies that merged together often engage in downsizing to eliminate overlaps to reduce market cannibalization and unneeded outflows

Another issue with the merger is that it has shaken up the pecking order of the parks in each formerly separate chain. We may see a pretty weird new reorder of the park hierarchy as they are recombined into whatever the new pecking order will be. One thing that is likely is that the CF executives still want CP to be the flagship park of the newly combined chain and probably don't want any of the SF parks to share that position with CP.

I know you mentioned in a later on that you didn't mean to imply that removing KK was an act of favoritism, but CF merging with SF and making sure that none of those legacy parks are in the same tier as CP definitely sounds like favoritism to me.

 

[The Master]

Even if I grant you that there is some amount of Six Flags market overlap (namely Dorney and to a lesser extent, Six Flags New England), the Philadelphia/New York City market is enormous, Great Adventure still has essentially uncontested reign in the entire state of New Jersey, and Great Adventure is obviously going to be the Six Flags flagship in the North East. Dorney may feel some pain as the lesser, supporting in this relationship, but there's zero reason to think Great Adventure isn't going to be treated INCREDIBLY well by the new Six Flags.

You forgot SFA which is the closest neighboring SF park to GAdv. I often seen SFA employees transfered to GAdv to help with staffing shortages. I also see plenty of DE and MD plates at GAdv. Again corporate finances will take time to recover from the merger before they are able to make major Capex investments in any of the parks again. Mergers always entail a extended period of downsizing. That is assuming the economy will be ok. Sadly
GAdv does not have a good reputation in the tri state area, its often considered a hangout for scuzzes and a babysitter for dropped off kids. Unfortunately over the last two years I seen a huge increase in open drug use by other park guests inside the park. SF would have to spend a fortune and years to clean up the park, improve its clientele, and fix its reputation. CP has a much better reputation than GAdv and most other SF parks.

 

[The Master]

I know you mentioned in a later on that you didn't mean to imply that removing KK was an act of favoritism, but CF merging with SF and making sure that none of those legacy parks are in the same tier as CP definitely sounds like favoritism to me.

Sadly corporations and even governments engage in favoritism, even when its illegal. Sometimes its fought and defeated, sometimes its ignored to avoid rocking the boat. Favoritism isn't always a conscious act either, sometimes people comit it subconsciously. Every park being a flagship defeats the purpose of a flagship.

Just FYI, I never been to CP so I am not trying to fanboy it. But I have seen the CF chain putting CP on a pedestal above its other parks as a flagship. Corporate culture doesn't change overnight, it takes time. This is why I forsee CP being the national flagship of the new chain. Perhaps some parks like GAdv may serve regional governor parks that oversee their region and smaller sister parks.

 

[netdvn]

Six Flags Great Adventure and Cedar Point are in two completely different markets and will never compete directly with one another. The majority of the clientele that GAdv gets will more than likely never visit CP in their lifetime and vice versa. Most of the people who would visit both make up such a small segment of the population, that it's barely a blip on the radar.

On that note, its VERY possible to have multiple flagship parks in the same chain. Both chains have multiple flagships that get most of the major additions. I believe under new management, the flagships of the chain will remain flagships but it looks like they see potential in a good chunk of the smaller parks as well. My guess is they're looking to expand a few of the smaller parks where they're expecting some growth while they offload underperforming parks.

 

[horsesboy]

To hop on the conspiracy train for just a minute there was a group of well organized, very vocal and significantly invested CF shareholders that very publicly oppose the merger on the grounds that it hurt the CF brand and Cedar Point legacy and history. I doesn't strike me as completely out of the realm of possibility that Ka could have been chosen as killing two birds with one stone. Save significant maintenance cost and throw a bone to Cedar Point by once again giving it the North American title or at least not having to deal with but Ka is running so why did you have to go change the ride. The might also offer an explanation for the lack of fan fair on an exit.

 

[Nitro230]

The lack of fan fair is purely because it was a last second decision to close it this year, it clearly was meant to close next season but corporate changed plans screwing it all up. In other news….Intamin’s social media is acting weird, idk if anyone saw the comment on Coaster 101’s post but it reads “4,5/6 ” Likely just refers to the fact that 4.5 out of the 6 coasters mentioned were Intamin but it’s certainly a weird coincidence that it’s also Kingda Ka’s height if you only look at the numbers.

 

[Zachary]

You forgot SFA which is the closest neighboring SF park to GAdv. I often seen SFA employees transfered to GAdv to help with staffing shortages. I also see plenty of DE and MD plates at GAdv.

SFA has it's own enormous metro pair to pull from, DC and Baltimore. No one from Philly/NJ/NYC is going to SFA, SFA is not on track to become a destination park, and I don't see any reason to think it ever will be on such a course. You theorize the new chain will be cash strapped—well building SFA, a park less centrally located in the NE corridor, into the NE flagship would cost far, far, FAR more than turning Great Adventure into the best amusement park in the country. It is obvious that SFGAdv will be the NE flagship and there's just zero chance in hell that SFA of all places will threaten that at all.

KD, SFA, Dorney, and SFNE are all going to play second fiddle to the NE flagship, SFGAdv. Those parks will all compete for their immediate metro areas with their non-Six Flags competitors to maximize the pass base in said metro areas. Then, Six Flags Great Adventure, the NE flagship, will have a few roles:

1. Directly serve the largest population pool in the country
2. Offer a compelling weekend trip for the many Six Flags pass holders located on the fringes of the park's immediate range—a number which will be significantly boosted by the previously mentioned feeder parks
3. Offer a compelling weekend trip to the entire region as the best amusement park in the NE corridor
4. Offer a top-teir amusement park experience nationwide to draw some amount of travel from further afield from both SF pass holders and outsiders

It will obviously take years to reach the endgame, but I am abundantly sure that that is the desired endgame and I am very, very confident that money will flow to Great Adventure at a nearly unprecedented clip in pursuit of that goal. Great Adventure is currently a dramatically underutilized asset and I am sure better capitalizing on it was one of the specific exciting opportunities Cedar Fair management saw in this merger.

 

[Riboflavenus]

It will obviously take years to reach the endgame, but I am abundantly sure that that is the desired endgame and I am very, very confident that money will flow to Great Adventure at a nearly unprecedented clip in pursuit of that goal. Great Adventure is currently a dramatically underutilized asset and I am sure better capitalizing on it was one of the specific exciting opportunities Cedar Fair management saw in this merger.

I think you're jumping to some interesting conclusions based on the information we have available. Namely, that anyone in in Virginia that isn't a New Jersey transplant would voluntarily go to New Jersey for a weekend. Gross.

 

[Zachary]

I think you're jumping to some interesting conclusions based on the information we have available. Namely, that anyone in in Virginia that isn't a New Jersey transplant would voluntarily go to New Jersey for a weekend. Gross.

What are we gonna do, go to Ohio for Cedar Point instead? In a theoretical world where the parks are comparable, I'll take Jersey over Ohio.

 

[CoasterRattler🐍]

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[Danny2002]

They're gonna retool Kingda Ka just like they did with TTD; also, Intamin themselves is doing it so no Zamperla stuff this time round.

 

[Riboflavenus]

What are we gonna do, go to Ohio for Cedar Point instead? In a theoretical world where the parks are comparable, I'll take Jersey over Ohio.

I'll skip both and go to orlando