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horsesboy

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Dropping this in here as we don't seem to have a general thread for the pipeline and I don't think it warrants a new thread. Maybe change this over to a general one on the pipeline instead of just the past clearing?

Colonial Pipeline that runs the pipeline under BGW just had a major cyber breach and has had to shut down the pipeline temporarily. At least a few experts seem to be questioning whether their safety systems on the pipeline could have been effected.

 

Nibbins

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Sooo... how is the pipeline shutdown going to effect Busch Gardens and Water Country this weekend.

Gas is sold out down here right now and they say the pipeline wont be back up until the weekend.

If I can't fill up my tank before I leave I won't risk driving to Williamsburg this week.
 
Jan 28, 2010
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Sooo... how is the pipeline shutdown going to effect Busch Gardens and Water Country this weekend.

Gas is sold out down here right now and they say the pipeline wont be back up until the weekend.

If I can't fill up my tank before I leave I won't risk driving to Williamsburg this week.

I was planning to go this weekend, but now I plan to wait and see how things play out. I've just filled up the tank on both cars, but stations here in Hampton Roads are starting to run out of gas. One that I was at ran out while I was pumping.
 
Nov 30, 2018
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I can't imagine this is good for BGW or KD. Anyone more than a few miles away is going to stay near home if stations are all out of gas for several days.
 

Jonesta6

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Apparently the news is reporting Hampton Roads is where most of the shortages are being seen, further inland it's not as big as issue - statewide it's closer to about 5% of stations running out as of earlier today.
 
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Apparently the news is reporting Hampton Roads is where most of the shortages are being seen, further inland it's not as big as issue - statewide it's closer to about 5% of stations running out as of earlier today.

Thank god, cuz I got about 10 MTE.

Also this is a good argument for electric cars.
 
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horsesboy

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The issue isn't so much that gas is short as that people are rushing to get it right away out of fear of it not being there. This is taxing the already tight supply of tankers and drivers to deliver the gas from the disruption points to stations and causing the stations to go through it faster then they can get deliveries. There is still currently decent supplies at the disruption points it's getting people to calm down and get it get to the stations that is the issue.

AAA: No gas shortage, panic-buying makes situation worse (wate.com)

Thank god, cuz I got about 10 MTE.

Also this is a good argument for electric cars.

No not really as that assumes that the electric grid is not at risk to the save sort of attack as the pipeline was hit with.
 
Nov 24, 2009
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I can't imagine this is good for BGW or KD. Anyone more than a few miles away is going to stay near home if stations are all out of gas for several days.

I can be at the park in about 30
minutes, with that said I get about 11 mpg. Right now there’s just not enough draw for me to burn 6-7 gallons to go.
Apparently the news is reporting Hampton Roads is where most of the shortages are being seen, further inland it's not as big as issue - statewide it's closer to about 5% of stations running out as of earlier today.
Again media is driving the frenzy…..i’m trying to not get this post moved to the political thread so i’ll leave it at that.
Thank god, cuz I got about 10 MTE.

Also this is a good argument for electric cars.
Right now the pipeline was a single target that affected millions. If millions could be affected by ransomware on cars there would be someone doing it. One day that will probably become a issue but just not today.
 
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Currently on a 15 car wait to get gas and they are basically price gouging at $3.59/gallon.

And as for electrical grids: I can’t wait to get a house cuz I’m doing solar.

Ransomware attacking millions of cars is hard. The reason they target something like the pipeline is it’s a single in out with millions affected. Going at individual cars through a system like Tesla would be a lot harder for them to miss.
 
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No not really as that assumes that the electric grid is not at risk to the save sort of attack as the pipeline was hit with.
It absolutely is a good argument for electric cars.

Keeping all of our eggs in one basket maximizes our critical dependence upon a transportation energy distribution network that can be, and has been, very effectively targeted at a single regional point of failure (or at least significant and noteworthy pain). The brightest single point in this current hacker saga is the fact that they said they were sorry and wouldn’t do something quite like this again. LOL. We can bet those who follow their blueprint next time won’t be so charitable.

The electric grid has its own vulnerabilities, and even more of them in regions that value incremental profit over durability, self-reliance, and common sense (QED). But moving toward a mature two-mode transportation energy infrastructure is nevertheless very wise. To bring it down effectively, hacking a pipeline won’t be enough anymore.

Arguably the electric grid is a juicier target anyway. Can’t pump gas when the power is out.

Edit: I’m sure the people making a run on gas pumps right now would appreciate seeing 50% of those people ahead of them in line waiting in line for electric somewhere else. Or not having to wait in line at all.
 
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It absolutely is a good argument for electric cars.

Keeping all of our eggs in one basket maximizes our critical dependence upon a transportation energy distribution network that can be, and has been, very effectively targeted at a single regional point of failure (or at least significant and noteworthy pain). The brightest single point in this current hacker saga is the fact that they said they were sorry and wouldn’t do something quite like this again. LOL. We can bet those who follow their blueprint next time won’t be so charitable.

The electric grid has its own vulnerabilities, and even more of them in regions that value incremental profit over durability, self-reliance, and common sense (QED). But moving toward a mature two-mode transportation energy infrastructure is nevertheless very wise. To bring it down effectively, hacking a pipeline won’t be enough anymore.

Arguably the electric grid is a juicier target anyway. Can’t pump gas when the power is out.

Edit: I’m sure the people making a run on gas pumps right now would appreciate seeing 50% of those people ahead of them in line waiting in line for electric somewhere else. Or not having to wait in line at all.

Im trying to recall the exact number (Thank you college GIS II work!!) for this next tidbit:

1 ransomware attack on a single point has crippled about 50% of the east coast. To have the same effect on the power grid I think it’s somewhere between 750-1000 points you have to hit simultaneously to create enough of an impact on the grid that the same percentage get effected. Outside of Texas (who have their own stupid grid) that’s how interwoven the grid is. Basically for this scale effect on power you are talking about cutting off power from the power creation (hydro, wind, coal, nuclear, and every other production) at the source from basically Charlotte to Boston.
 

Jonesta6

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Ransomware may be this attack, but that's obviously not the only type of infrastructure-disrupting cyber attack that could cause major issues. Not to mention it's practically impossible to harden a physical target that stretches thousands of miles from any physical attacks... Or simple accidents/blunders.

While home renewable energy is starting to become popular (wish I could do it with my house but a giant tree is in the way -complicated story but essentially unless it is in danger of or actually falls it's not going anywhere anytime soon), I think a majority of electric cars would inherently be fueled by the power grid, which in turn is fueled by fossil fuels except when you live somewhere that is covered by a nuclear plant or wind farm in Virginia - I haven't heard of utility scale solar except built for and by private companies such as data centers (Facebook in Henrico County, etc).

Though unless you experience a blackout and can't go find a public charger, I guess you're ok?
 
Nov 24, 2009
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Currently on a 15 car wait to get gas and they are basically price gouging at $3.59/gallon.

And as for electrical grids: I can’t wait to get a house cuz I’m doing solar.

Ransomware attacking millions of cars is hard. The reason they target something like the pipeline is it’s a single in out with millions affected. Going at individual cars through a system like Tesla would be a lot harder for them to miss.
It’s not as hard as you think, What if someone writes code for a software update that pushes out one day to all cars then takes affect at a specific time. What if they push software that makes self driving cars al suddenly turn right. Heck look at current Ford vehicles, literally a scan of a barcode in the door jam
and you can take control of a vehicle remotely.
 
Oct 7, 2011
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Ransomware may be this attack, but that's obviously not the only type of infrastructure-disrupting cyber attack that could cause major issues.
But it was the only one that was needed to completely shut down the Colonial Pipeline. True, there are others as well.

While home renewable energy is starting to become popular (wish I could do it with my house but a giant tree is in the way -complicated story but essentially unless it is in danger of or actually falls it's not going anywhere anytime soon), I think a majority of electric cars would inherently be fueled by the power grid, which in turn is fueled by fossil fuels except when you live somewhere that is covered by a nuclear plant or wind farm in Virginia - I haven't heard of utility scale solar except built for and by private companies such as data centers (Facebook in Henrico County, etc).
Electricity generation is a good example of diversifying energy sources. No oil? Natural gas is transported separately, including via separate (pressurized) pipelines. Then there's coal, nuclear, and renewables to various degrees. Power plants all over the place, reserve capacity often available. The grid would be the place to attack, not a ton of individual plants, but that's also redundant as @warfelg noted due to its byzantine construction. Unless you live in Texas or southern Oklahoma -- where energy security policy apparently is written unintelligibly in crayon on paper grocery bags by hard livin' men ping-ponging across the backs of rodeo bulls -- as far as I know there isn't a single point of the power grid to attack that would take down a Colonial Pipeline's worth of energy delivery to an entire region. No takedown is impossible in concept, but going after a bunch of distributed nodes is inherently harder. And harder is better (for us anyway).

I will say that usefully charging one's car via solar power/Powerwall while also trying to keep one's house running via the same solar panels is a tall order. You can do it; depending on factors outside your immediate control, you may be waiting a long, frustrating while. Still, it's possible with patience and some good fortune. This assumes you have a solar installation that continues operating when you lose utility power. Many grid-tied systems don't.

But overall it's better than trying to produce gasoline at home. Maybe you can get a diesel running, if you're resourceful with a few parts under the hood and cook a lot of fried foods...
 

Zimmy

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Here is the thing, if there is no access to gas stations then for the most part that is it for gas burning cars. If the electric grid shuts down an electric car can still be charged by local systems. (generators and solar come to mind).


Further the pipeline shutting down is a problem, no question, but we can generally live our lives until it comes back. However if a terrorist (and that's what the black hats are) manages to shut down the entire electrical grid in a large region like Tidewater, that can have immediate and direct consequences.

Incidentally this is why I am happy the Navy is doing things like installing solar farms at NAS Oceana.
 
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It’s not as hard as you think, What if someone writes code for a software update that pushes out one day to all cars then takes affect at a specific time. What if they push software that makes self driving cars al suddenly turn right.

Actually that is very hard. Let's look at Tesla for example:
1 - Their level 3 autonomous driving still has redundancy after redundancy built into the system where a Manuel override still takes precedent.
2 - That's assuming that when an update is written that redundancy on redundancy misses that in the update.
3 - That also assumes that everyone processed the update in time.

I know you are trying to play devils advocate, but there's reasons that terrorists go for single high value targets over multiple low value targets. The effort, planning, and work to go after the small targets is not worth the work as opposed to the high value target. Something like the Colonial Pipeline doesn't have people constantly working on, constantly updating, and always watching the programing to the level that something like Tesla's programming update does. No to mention Tesla's software communication if a two way road, and when the car notices something wrong with it's programming, it can communicate with Tesla to get itself fixed.

This article shows how hard it is to defeat Tesla's programming from 6 years ago, and it's only gotten better:
https://mashable.com/2015/08/10/tesla-model-s-hack/

Heck look at current Ford vehicles, literally a scan of a barcode in the door jam
and you can take control of a vehicle remotely.

Yea hmmmm that system that starts, locks, unlocks, locates a parked car, and tells you range to empty is so dangerous. And that's still only single car operations with a limited to no back door way to effect every new Ford that's on the road.

So I don't think you are considering just how hard what you are suggesting is. There's many more redundancies in place for something as complicated as remote care updates, or even single control updates. On top of that the NTHSB is constantly reviewing autonomous programming to look at any loopholes that could cause something to go wring and not allow a user override. Hence why there's unlikely to ever by full autonomous self driving cars, as a manual override is almost always going to end up required.

And that's less a hacker question and more a morality question. And the one at the heart of this is the Trolly Problem, which goes like this:
There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options:

  1. Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.
  2. Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.
Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?

If a car goes fully autonomous, that means that a car is programmed to make this choice for the driver, passengers, and pedestrians. The question at hand comes from a legality standpoint of who's liable? Is it the driver? The auto manufacturer? The car owner? Or despite people being killed would it be a no fault accident?
 
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Service will be restored by the weekend. All I know is whoever is in DarkSide hacking group might not want to leave Russia anytime soon.
supposedly they said they will start vetting their clients more closely (they offer Ransomeware-as-a-Service) because being associated with attacks against infrastructure like this will put them straight to the top of the governments hit list.
 
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I’m not buying any of these explanations. I’ve seen they didn’t know what they were attacking, who asked them to attack, that it was an accident to do this. They know who ordered this, what they were doing, and what the outcome would be. This is just a precursor to something bigger with an infrastructure attack.
 
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