Project 2023 (?): Festhaus Park Giga Coaster

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Jonesta6

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Feb 14, 2019
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But even with that example for CP - TTD is the beacon for folks to come even if they may not even end up riding it (weather closures, technicals, etc), but they stick around for the other rides. CP is heavily reliant upon their rides being the draw though.

BGW had become a more rides oriented park in general, but (ignoring the pandemic restrictions) also has done well with offering entertainment options, food/drink, and/or scenery for those that aren't there for just the rides.

So for us to dismiss a really tall shuttle coaster out of hand that looks like it'll be fun and likely help draw new traffic to the park (getting those sweet single-day ticket revenues) assuming the spire is easily visible for all of the promotional material is doing it an injustice.

That said, I'd be totally cool with a Maverick clone instead or another hamlet.
 
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Aug 9, 2017
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After thinking about it more, the prefab woodie is topping my Intamin wish list for BGW. SEAS marketed Texas Stingray as the state's biggest wooden coaster, a much less impressive record without Rattler around. It wouldn't be hard to be Virginia's biggest wooden coaster, I could see something the size of Balder as opposed to El Toro. Though ideally it would be just tall enough to be able to fit a record-breaking drop angle. I'm doubtful they'll go for a woodie of El Toro's scale after the fate of Gwazi.

Shit I already had an idea for it to be themed for the famous Nurburgring race track. It's both historical (Nordschleife, Südschleife, Gesamtstrecke all built in 1927) and modern-is as well.
The only coaster that would work with that theming is an S&S pneumatic. S&S redeeming themselves after the failure of Ring Racer.
 

ControlsEE

I probably should be working...
Oct 2, 2018
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I dont think they would go for prefab wooden coaster. Watch ElToroRyan's video on the problems with prefabs and you can see why there aren't that many of them. If Busch wants another non-gci woodie, they would probably go RMC.
 
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Oct 7, 2011
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Whatever does go in back there, I really like the idea of utilizing that ravine for extra drop height. It’s probably my favorite design element of the Spire layout.

A wide variety of ride systems could do wonderful things with that ravine.
 
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Zachary

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Maybe I'm way off-base here, but in my estimation, if BGW wants to modify the Festhaus Park coaster plans, I think it’s more likely that they are looking to plus their previous plans rather than to downsize them. One imagines that the park’s original Project Madrid goals—to make a huge, record-breaking icon of a coaster—likely remain intact. Coronavirus has certainly shifted timelines, but I don’t actually think we’ve seen much from SEAS since March 2020 to suggest that SEAS’ ultimate game plan has really changed that much—they still seem to be on an absolute rampage pushing towards building top tier coaster collections at all of their parks.

Furthermore, the Festhaus Park site sorta requires that whatever the park constructs back there be a massive, visible, magnet of an attraction. Maverick look-a-like? An Intamin single rail? A CGI woodie? I get that enthusiasts like these things, but they ignore the reality of the site. The site requires a true monument of a coaster—something people will see looming over the tree line and that will motivate them to walk ~500 feet down around the back of Verbolten to ride it.

Plus, we got our Maverick: Pantheon. We got our woodie: InvadR. Our collection is missing a record-breaking, GP-magnet of a coaster. That is what Drachen Spire (and Project Madrid before it!) was going to be—and until shown otherwise, my estimation is that the park is unlikely to stray too terribly far from that goal.

Another thing to keep in mind: pursuing a huge redesign means another enormous investment of capital. It’s very likely that the cheapest path to a substantial new coaster at this point really would have been to just build Drachen Spire, no? If the park is going to throw out all of that already-completed development and design work, surely there’s a really compelling reason to do it, yeah? The same goes for the regulatory hurdles—the park would be throwing away all of the time, money, and political capital invested into getting their waivers and plans approved.

That would all be reasonable if this were an act of desperation—if the park just couldn’t afford a big new coaster and needed to abandon the project. If the park really was just trying to cut their losses though, they wouldn’t be designing another new coaster for Festhaus Park. Basically, in my estimation, given how far along things were, there has to be a real driving force behind potentially scraping the Drachen Spire plans—and given that the new rumor is that a new project for the site is being designed, it seems that this driving force is unlikely to be purely financial.

If we rule out financial ruin, a breakdown in the BGW/Intamin relationship, and some sort of enormous change in the park’s goals, it seems to me that the most likely reason for a Drachen Spire redesign would be that the park sees an opportunity to create a coaster that is even more exciting and marketable than Drachen Spire was.
 
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Jonesta6

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Feb 14, 2019
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...........what if they just make Drachen Spire a full circuit coaster like Xcelerator on steroids?
Would be cool but I think @Zachary did the research and found that would be unlikely given the permits and space it would occupy. Additionally, if my understanding of magnet driven launches is even close to accurate, there's not going to be enough juice to actually send trains over that high of a top hat.
 
Aug 9, 2017
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...........what if they just make Drachen Spire a full circuit coaster like Xcelerator on steroids?
That would be preferable, seeing as we already have the shuttle element in Pantheon.

For the record to break, I'd like it to be an inverted top hat to be the world's highest inversion, seeing as Pantheon already has a regular top hat. That wouldn't have to be anywhere as big, but would still be big enough to draw guests.
 
Jul 14, 2019
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Additionally, if my understanding of magnet driven launches is even close to accurate, there's not going to be enough juice to actually send trains over that high of a top hat.
Red Force in PortAventura uses LSM instead of the Hydraulic launches like Xcelerator, Top Thrill Dragster & Kingda Ka and it is listed at 367ft. If Intamin can send trains over a 367ft top hat with LSMs then can certainly do it on a 355ft top hat

That would be preferable, seeing as we already have the shuttle element in Pantheon.

For the record to break, I'd like it to be an inverted top hat to be the world's highest inversion, seeing as Pantheon already has a regular top hat. That wouldn't have to be anywhere as big, but would still be big enough to draw guests.
355ft inverted top hat would be quite interesting....
 
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Jonesta6

Glumble
Feb 14, 2019
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Red Force in PortAventura uses LSM instead of the Hydraulic launches like Xcelerator, Top Thrill Dragster & Kingda Ka and it is listed at 367ft. If Intamin can send trains over a 367ft top hat with LSMs then can certainly do it on a 355ft top hat



355ft inverted top hat would be quite interesting....
Given the layout restrictions of DS and how much room is needed for such a launch and then to bleed off speed from that high of a drop, it's highly unlikely they could put in enough stators to make it happen.
 
Jul 14, 2019
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Given the layout restrictions of DS and how much room is needed for such a launch and then to bleed off speed from that high of a drop, it's highly unlikely they could put in enough stators to make it happen.
I definitely think it could be done. Remember in the current plans it doesnt launch from a dead stop to hit the top hat like the top hat launches, it hits the "valley launch" already moving so I would think you would need less stators to accelerate it from 45mph-ish up to the 90+ to clear the hat
 
Oct 7, 2011
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Just to echo one of @Zachary’s many reliably excellent points... whatever goes into the dead-end FP area needs to be supersized and therefore highly visible to maximize its draw to that isolated corner of the park.

As I recall, Drachen Fire went in as the highest human-occupiable point in the park, being the tallest attraction there (upon opening) and standing on high ground. Yet it was less visible from outside Oktoberfest than one might have expected. From atop LNM and from certain other vantage points its higher points were clearly visible, but the wooded setting of the park limited those guest sight lines.

Anything new going in back there needs to be tall. Really tall. Hopefully it’s not too much to ask folks to see a huge spike immediately behind VB and figure out they have to hike up to the Festhaus to reach it. Seriously visceral visual motivation boosts that likelihood...
 
Sep 24, 2018
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Wouldn’t adding a full fledged top hat ruin the “knife-like” aspect of the design that appeased kingsmill?
The promises were never there to appease Kingsmill but rather to provide political coverage for the board of supervisors when they inevitably approved the project.
 
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Does back to the drawing board mean sufficiently different to reset the height waiver process?

Particularly if the promises made last time (looking like a thin tower from Kingsmill, max height being at the Rhine end of the field) are possibly no longer true?
Maybe I'm way off-base here, but in my estimation, if BGW wants to modify the Festhaus Park coaster plans, I think it’s more likely that they are looking to plus their previous plans rather than to downsize them. One imagines that the park’s original Project Madrid goals—to make a huge, record-breaking icon of a coaster—likely remain intact. Coronavirus has certainly shifted timelines, but I don’t actually think we’ve seen much from SEAS since March 2020 to suggest that SEAS’ ultimate game plan has really changed that much—they still seem to be on an absolute rampage pushing towards building top tier coaster collections at all of their parks.

Furthermore, the Festhaus Park site sorta requires that whatever the park constructs back there be a massive, visible, magnet of an attraction. Maverick look-a-like? An Intamin single rail? A CGI woodie? I get that enthusiasts like these things, but they ignore the reality of the site. The site requires a true monument of a coaster—something people will see looming over the tree line and that will motivate them to walk ~500 feet down around the back of Verbolten to ride it.

Plus, we got our Maverick: Pantheon. We got our woodie: InvadR. Our collection is missing a record-breaking, GP-magnet of a coaster. That is what Drachen Spire (and Project Madrid before it!) was going to be—and until shown otherwise, my estimation is that the park is unlikely to stray too terribly far from that goal.

Another thing to keep in mind: pursuing a huge redesign means another enormous investment of capital. It’s very likely that the cheapest path to a substantial new coaster at this point really would have been to just build Drachen Spire, no? If the park is going to throw out all of that already-completed development and design work, surely there’s a really compelling reason to do it, yeah? The same goes for the regulatory hurdles—the park would be throwing away all of the time, money, and political capital invested into getting their waivers and plans approved.

That would all be reasonable if this were an act of desperation—if the park just couldn’t afford a big new coaster and needed to abandon the project. If the park really was just trying to cut their losses though, they wouldn’t be designing another new coaster for Festhaus Park. Basically, in my estimation, given how far along things were, there has to be a real driving force behind potentially scraping the Drachen Spire plans—and given that the new rumor is that a new project for the site is being designed, it seems that this driving force is unlikely to be purely financial.

If we rule out financial ruin, a breakdown in the BGW/Intamin relationship, and some sort of enormous change in the park’s goals, it seems to me that the most likely reason for a Drachen Spire redesign would be that the park sees an opportunity to create a coaster that is even more exciting and marketable than Drachen Spire was.
Without giving too much away, I would expect @Zachary to be closer to correct, if what I'm hearing is the truth. It seems like they are seeking to put an even better attraction in the space.
 
Nov 30, 2018
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Maybe I'm way off-base here, but in my estimation, if BGW wants to modify the Festhaus Park coaster plans, I think it’s more likely that they are looking to plus their previous plans rather than to downsize them. One imagines that the park’s original Project Madrid goals—to make a huge, record-breaking icon of a coaster—likely remain intact. Coronavirus has certainly shifted timelines, but I don’t actually think we’ve seen much from SEAS since March 2020 to suggest that SEAS’ ultimate game plan has really changed that much—they still seem to be on an absolute rampage pushing towards building top tier coaster collections at all of their parks.

Furthermore, the Festhaus Park site sorta requires that whatever the park constructs back there be a massive, visible, magnet of an attraction. Maverick look-a-like? An Intamin single rail? A CGI woodie? I get that enthusiasts like these things, but they ignore the reality of the site. The site requires a true monument of a coaster—something people will see looming over the tree line and that will motivate them to walk ~500 feet down around the back of Verbolten to ride it.

Plus, we got our Maverick: Pantheon. We got our woodie: InvadR. Our collection is missing a record-breaking, GP-magnet of a coaster. That is what Drachen Spire (and Project Madrid before it!) was going to be—and until shown otherwise, my estimation is that the park is unlikely to stray too terribly far from that goal.

Another thing to keep in mind: pursuing a huge redesign means another enormous investment of capital. It’s very likely that the cheapest path to a substantial new coaster at this point really would have been to just build Drachen Spire, no? If the park is going to throw out all of that already-completed development and design work, surely there’s a really compelling reason to do it, yeah? The same goes for the regulatory hurdles—the park would be throwing away all of the time, money, and political capital invested into getting their waivers and plans approved.

That would all be reasonable if this were an act of desperation—if the park just couldn’t afford a big new coaster and needed to abandon the project. If the park really was just trying to cut their losses though, they wouldn’t be designing another new coaster for Festhaus Park. Basically, in my estimation, given how far along things were, there has to be a real driving force behind potentially scraping the Drachen Spire plans—and given that the new rumor is that a new project for the site is being designed, it seems that this driving force is unlikely to be purely financial.

If we rule out financial ruin, a breakdown in the BGW/Intamin relationship, and some sort of enormous change in the park’s goals, it seems to me that the most likely reason for a Drachen Spire redesign would be that the park sees an opportunity to create a coaster that is even more exciting and marketable than Drachen Spire was.
A possibility to throw out there is engineering issues discovered in the area as they got further into design or disovered by Intamin while building Pantheon, necessitating changes to the original design that make the ride untenable as currently designed (e.g. due to soil issues the ride could only tolerate speeds up to X mph which would only 200ft up the spire).
 

Jonesta6

Glumble
Feb 14, 2019
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Do we know with any certainty there are issues with the soil in the DF park area?

It would line up with a rumor that was what did DF in, which seems plausible given the extreme departure from Arrow's usual support structure could mean that what they initially thought was a tolerable amount of compaction/settling helped knock the track out of alignment enough for a painful ride.
 
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