Long Term Business Plan for KD
- Thread starter Jahrules
- Start date
I’ve been seeing too many videos and people saying Kings Dominion soon will become one of those forgotten parks because CF has taken their focus off of them… that’s really sad to me considering i’ve grown up here and seen what it used to be like. I’m not really educated on that subject so could somebody give me a prediction of where KD will be in about 5 years… better? worse?
The fearmongering about KD is unfounded and ridiculous. Yes, Kings Dominion lost out to Carowinds in the race to become the southeast flagship. That doesn't mean Kings Dominion is suddenly a bottom-tier park though. There's a reason Kings Dominion was in the running alongside Carowinds—it's a large park with a ton of land adjacent to healthy population centers that Cedar Fair believes are currently underserved.
For the last ten years or so now, Kings Dominion has been on a slow but steady climb. There's no reason for Cedar Fair to decide to change course right now. You won't see the explosive growth that Carowinds has seen, but things should continue to improve in Doswell.
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"Forgotten" is such a lame term thrown around by the community. No park is "forgotten", they serve the size of the markets within their proximity.
The metro Richmond area and surround suburbs are booming and the NOVA area is massive. Highly unlikely it gets "forgotten". The overall park experience is improving, staffing issues are bad across the board but the park looks more charming in the past few years than I can ever remember.
Not getting a new swing launch strata every 2 years isn't any form of neglect.
Edit: Damn, Zach beat me too it. Statement stands.
The metro Richmond area and surround suburbs are booming and the NOVA area is massive. Highly unlikely it gets "forgotten". The overall park experience is improving, staffing issues are bad across the board but the park looks more charming in the past few years than I can ever remember.
Not getting a new swing launch strata every 2 years isn't any form of neglect.
Edit: Damn, Zach beat me too it. Statement stands.
Sometimes I can't help but look at all the commenters online that shun KD's status and investments. They think that just because they expanded Planet Snoopy twice, added a water play area to replace Big Wave Bay, removed a number of rides especially Volcano, and added a free spin means it's the end of the world for the park. Those people get on my nerves. At least they do now that the park is rebuilding Safari Village into Jungle X-Pedition and the result is incredible. It's a sign that the park's image is improving and yet people still believe Cedar Fair is neglecting KD.
You may have seen that user Michael Zell who frequently pops up in Facebook and YouTube comments. Every time he does, he shoots down any person's optimism that Kings Dominion is going in the right direction. He's said things such as:
I think Cedar Fair has plans for Kings Dominion that will take it in the proper direction. The Jungle-X environment includes many elements I'd never expect to find at a CF park other than Knott's, and it's unlike anything I've ever seen KD do with theming in the past decade. Airtime Myke is very optimistic about the park's future and has listed several investments CF has made with them that prove there's no neglect. Even he doesn't like Tumbili or free spins in general, yet he understands why it came to KD. Believe it or disbelieve it, but he also claims that he was told about the plans for Volcano's successor and thinks that it will be a "home run" attraction that'll make the park once again have a top 3 coaster collection. Again, I wouldn't count on the reliability of this. I don't know the plans. I don't want to until they are announced. But it's something to wonder about.
You may have seen that user Michael Zell who frequently pops up in Facebook and YouTube comments. Every time he does, he shoots down any person's optimism that Kings Dominion is going in the right direction. He's said things such as:
- The B&M Wing coaster (proposal) for Volcano's land was never going to happen and was just "fanboy speculation."
- There was no contract between BGW and KD over B&M.
- *Back when Tumbili was a rumor* If the free spin happens, he is done with KD.
- Kings Dominion is the "red-headed stepchild" of Cedar Fair as they keep investing in waterpark and "kiddie land" expansions and not what guests want (yeah didn't we get Windseeker, Hurricane Heights, Delirium, and Twisted Timbers?)
- As KD keeps "slipping behind" BGW, CF is viewing the low attendance as an excuse to not invest more in the park.
- A substantial Volcano replacement is never going to happen because CF views KD as a "lost cause" and is going down the route of Six Flags America.
- In fact, he claims that the Volcano land will be used as some "archaeological dig site" attraction/play area judging by the rubble from Volcano's demolition left behind (are you f**king kidding me).
- And to top ALL OF IT OFF - he describes KDFans (and possibly ParkFans as a whole) as an unreliable source of information, claiming it's just a fan site run by teenagers who keep playing guessing games as to what type of attraction is going in a spot and have "no idea what they're talking about."
I think Cedar Fair has plans for Kings Dominion that will take it in the proper direction. The Jungle-X environment includes many elements I'd never expect to find at a CF park other than Knott's, and it's unlike anything I've ever seen KD do with theming in the past decade. Airtime Myke is very optimistic about the park's future and has listed several investments CF has made with them that prove there's no neglect. Even he doesn't like Tumbili or free spins in general, yet he understands why it came to KD. Believe it or disbelieve it, but he also claims that he was told about the plans for Volcano's successor and thinks that it will be a "home run" attraction that'll make the park once again have a top 3 coaster collection. Again, I wouldn't count on the reliability of this. I don't know the plans. I don't want to until they are announced. But it's something to wonder about.
Hot take?
Improving KDs culinary (happening), infrastructure (kinda? But yet to be seen), theme elements (starting), and merchandise (hasn’t started) is just as if not more important than just adding rides on rides.
Improving KDs culinary (happening), infrastructure (kinda? But yet to be seen), theme elements (starting), and merchandise (hasn’t started) is just as if not more important than just adding rides on rides.
I think that CF sees a great deal of potential with KD and is investing in areas that desperately needed improvement. If anything, I feel like KD was so poorly run by Paramount, that it's taken years to fix the damage they did.
Some are only interested in new rides and may forget about KD, though I doubt it. For those who want a great lineup now and don't want to have to wait a lot to ride, it's the best. New Grizzly will make it even better.
In my opinion, all the improvements have allowed Carowinds to catch up to KD as a park, not move ahead, we'll see if CF lets off. Cedar Fair realized the park was completely inadequate for a great market area and improved it.
As to BGW, they have become very aggressive lately, but that's probably better for KD fans.
In my opinion, all the improvements have allowed Carowinds to catch up to KD as a park, not move ahead, we'll see if CF lets off. Cedar Fair realized the park was completely inadequate for a great market area and improved it.
As to BGW, they have become very aggressive lately, but that's probably better for KD fans.
Shoutout to Okay Coasters who did a great video on this very topic:
Direct Link to Embedded Media Source
Direct Link to Embedded Media Source
CF has owned KD so long now, they really can’t be blaming Paramount. Frankly CF is fixing the damage brought on by CF - e.g. bottoming out food just a few years ago, toxic Intamin relationship, lackluster theming, etc.
Very much agreed. I’m also worried about what the closure of Forbidden Frontier for Cedar Point means for the push for immersiveness in the parks overall.
Cedar Fair seems to really whiplash on things like this at given moments with only short term results to fall back on.
Now, in the case of Forbidden Frontier could other issues (pandemic, hard to find, did it once did it all) played into the lack of excitement? Absolutely. They should have made FF an Upcharge item with heavy interaction, maybe even a ride or two exclusive to being in there. Developed stories that were escape room like and the only way to leave was to solve your “problem” with there being a mix of 10-20 stories to solve.
But I’m still worried that this could mean that shows will quickly go away. Attention to props and theme elements will wither over time. CF feels like they have a lot of picked up and dropped ideas like this them make it into the parks.
I’m not too worried about the implications of Forbidden Frontier’s closure. That area was incredibly staffing-intensive (with dozens of extra-expensive actors), horribly located away from the rest of the park on a literal island, and didn’t have any rides or attractions to help draw guests to it. I’m sure with the cost of labor having skyrocketed since FF opened, combined with the total isolation of the attraction, it was an obvious business decision to cut it.
I don’t think immersive themed areas necessarily have those same problems, and it seems clear CF is still leaning heavily into immersive theming. In their last earnings call, CF’s CEO emphasized immersive thematic experiences as a core part of CF’s new strategy. Knott’s and Caro are both adding immersive themed areas as we speak. And CF executives have directly stated that Jungle X was a huge success and that it will serve as a springboard for future development at KD and throughout the company.
I don’t think immersive themed areas necessarily have those same problems, and it seems clear CF is still leaning heavily into immersive theming. In their last earnings call, CF’s CEO emphasized immersive thematic experiences as a core part of CF’s new strategy. Knott’s and Caro are both adding immersive themed areas as we speak. And CF executives have directly stated that Jungle X was a huge success and that it will serve as a springboard for future development at KD and throughout the company.
I definitely don’t think that Cedar Fair is done with theming, in fact they’ve really only just started. The corporate Planning and Design team was combined with Live Entertainment a few years ago, and that department is now called the Experience Design and Creative Studio. It’s led by Chuck Myers, who came from Imagineering, and Ken Parks, who came directly from Knott’s and Imagineering before that. I’m very excited for the future of KD and CF as far as thematic environments go.
What other theming and things did Cedar Fair start on saying it would continue for multiple years and then just drop it off? I think Triotech dark rides at every park was one of them.
Kings Dominion still has that void to fill where the Lost World/Volcano used to be, which would be a reason to continue theming in Jungle X-Pedition. Also don’t forget that Kings Dominion would start celebrating its 50th anniversary in 2024 as a portion of the park opened in 1974, so that’s coming up. It’s possible we will see continued in-park improvements/theming then.
Kings Dominion still has that void to fill where the Lost World/Volcano used to be, which would be a reason to continue theming in Jungle X-Pedition. Also don’t forget that Kings Dominion would start celebrating its 50th anniversary in 2024 as a portion of the park opened in 1974, so that’s coming up. It’s possible we will see continued in-park improvements/theming then.
Okaycoasters is one of my favorite thoosie tubers, really underrated.
Kings Dominion is a beautiful park with so much potential. It definitely is on the B list with Cedar Fair as far as major investments. The park’s just doesn’t draw the attendance of the top tier Cedar Fair parks.
While Jungle X is fantasy, it was a relatively low cost improvement to go with a lower cost coaster. This is actually a great direction for the company because they make their smaller investment seem like so much more with quality cohesive theming improvents.
Part of the reason KD doesn’t draw its potential attendance is nearby BGW. Unfortunately BGW offers more to do for non thrill seekers (more shows in actual show venues and transportation rides). KD continues to fail in these areas after Paramount desecrated them.
I have a friend that does not like thrill rides thst I took to Busch Gardens. She had a great time. I would never have taken her to Kings Dominion, because of the lack of things for people like her to do there.
I personally would rather see KD continue on the path of improving the atmosphere than huge coasters with no theming. But they desperately need to add shows and attractions something to attract the non thrill seekers to help increase the attendance. This is their current untapped market.
While Jungle X is fantasy, it was a relatively low cost improvement to go with a lower cost coaster. This is actually a great direction for the company because they make their smaller investment seem like so much more with quality cohesive theming improvents.
Part of the reason KD doesn’t draw its potential attendance is nearby BGW. Unfortunately BGW offers more to do for non thrill seekers (more shows in actual show venues and transportation rides). KD continues to fail in these areas after Paramount desecrated them.
I have a friend that does not like thrill rides thst I took to Busch Gardens. She had a great time. I would never have taken her to Kings Dominion, because of the lack of things for people like her to do there.
I personally would rather see KD continue on the path of improving the atmosphere than huge coasters with no theming. But they desperately need to add shows and attractions something to attract the non thrill seekers to help increase the attendance. This is their current untapped market.
So are we comparing KD to other CF parks or are we comparing to BGW? Two different animals. I doubt KD will ever be up to the thematic/beauty standard that BGW has set, but it's seen significant improvement in the past 5 years and has some better themed areas than even the flagship Cedar Point.
Then we move to the food overhaul. I'll try to be brief here since this seems to be a chain-wide push (Farmhouse Kitchen & Grill has me salivating from 500 miles away), but the food at KD has seen a huge overhaul and blows BGW culinary out of the water lately. I still want to kick someone in the shin for the chain-wide ditching of Mac Bowl locations though.
I have only recently learned to appreciate the value of shows so I'll refrain from commenting on something I know next to nothing about.
Lastly, and most importantly to many, we touch on the rides.... CF has consistently added (and removed) rides from KD. They added a giga, an RMC conversion, a 4d free spin, the old Grizzly retrack work, the new Grizzly retrack/reprofile, Windseeker (
), Delerium (
), Americana, Dinosaurs, a massive Planet Snoopy expansion, two waterpark expansions, and a few other smaller items. In that same window, they removed Volcano (sad, but understandable I guess), HXLC (endlessly problematic), Dinosaurs (net even), Shockwave, El Dorado (net even), The Crypt (thankfully), and a few other small items. This is surely a net positive when comparing since 2006, even with the loss of Volcano still hurting my soul, and shows that there has been a continuous investment in the park's rides over the past decade-and-a-half.
Moving forward we already see CF/KD continue adding new dining options and I'd expect to see KD get a big new coaster/flat package sometime soon considering CGA is closing, KI got Orion, KBF got HangTime and the Montezooma work, Carowinds has received Copperhead and tons of additional attention, CW doesn't count because Canada, CP doesn't count because it's CP and is always getting that flagship love, and the remaining parks are all significantly smaller regional options compared to KD. Sprinkle in BGW's recent aggressively competitive investments and some unfounded optimism and I think CF will realize that it's KD's time to shine! Please?
- Jungle X and the Reptillian redesign are very cohesive. The lore is nice and the detail added to places like Outpost are welcomed. They even managed to make a scrambler have decent theming. This is probably better than any area in CP. I'd accept arguments for Frontier Town.
- International Street could use a little elbow grease and some more actual cultural diversity with its shops (mainly thinking food), but it sure is beautiful when the park is in full swing.
- There was an attempt to turn the TT/AZ area into a 50's vibe to match the existing diner while also sticking with the Candy Apple Grove connection. Still needs more. Fell short, but TT was a decently themed coaster in a chain known for slapping gigas in fields. Candy Apple Grove is a huge area of the park that I would hope to be the next section for some attention.
- That said, the entire Backlot/Anaconda/FoF/i305 area is a mess and has zero thematic cohesion and I have absolutely zero ideas/suggestions on how you'd ever try to fix that. It's probably a lost cause until Anaconda is replaced someday.
- I appreciate Old Virginia as it stands. It's a chill, laid-back way to escape some of the more in-you-face elements of amusement parks and their themes.
- My 4yr old tells me that Planet Snoopy rocks. Enough said.
Then we move to the food overhaul. I'll try to be brief here since this seems to be a chain-wide push (Farmhouse Kitchen & Grill has me salivating from 500 miles away), but the food at KD has seen a huge overhaul and blows BGW culinary out of the water lately. I still want to kick someone in the shin for the chain-wide ditching of Mac Bowl locations though.
I have only recently learned to appreciate the value of shows so I'll refrain from commenting on something I know next to nothing about.
Lastly, and most importantly to many, we touch on the rides.... CF has consistently added (and removed) rides from KD. They added a giga, an RMC conversion, a 4d free spin, the old Grizzly retrack work, the new Grizzly retrack/reprofile, Windseeker (
), Delerium (), Americana, Dinosaurs, a massive Planet Snoopy expansion, two waterpark expansions, and a few other smaller items. In that same window, they removed Volcano (sad, but understandable I guess), HXLC (endlessly problematic), Dinosaurs (net even), Shockwave, El Dorado (net even), The Crypt (thankfully), and a few other small items. This is surely a net positive when comparing since 2006, even with the loss of Volcano still hurting my soul, and shows that there has been a continuous investment in the park's rides over the past decade-and-a-half.Moving forward we already see CF/KD continue adding new dining options and I'd expect to see KD get a big new coaster/flat package sometime soon considering CGA is closing, KI got Orion, KBF got HangTime and the Montezooma work, Carowinds has received Copperhead and tons of additional attention, CW doesn't count because Canada, CP doesn't count because it's CP and is always getting that flagship love, and the remaining parks are all significantly smaller regional options compared to KD. Sprinkle in BGW's recent aggressively competitive investments and some unfounded optimism and I think CF will realize that it's KD's time to shine! Please?
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A few items I think CF could consider:
-A new coaster (my current guess is a wing coaster of some kind, second guess a Mack) and Zamperla flat package to complete Jungle X with rethemes of appropriate rides
-Front section of CAG receives a small flat package, turn Victorias into a Harmony Hall/Grand Pavilion like facility. MAYBE they turn one of the huge arcade by Racer 75 or the huge ugly games booth by the mushrooms into an empty space for a smaller coaster of some kind?
-A coaster and potential small flat package in the area with Xtreme Skyflyer, the go karts and the former location of Dinosaurs Alive
-I really want a B&M Hyper just build a 250+ huge hyper for capacity reasons (maybe?
) just put it in the very back corner of Jungle X near Reptilian.
-Build a Springhill Suites where the old hotel is.
-Probably another flat package for Snoopys planet at some point
-Probably another slide tower for Soak City at some point.
No idea when or what but that would be my guess for options they may consider.
-A new coaster (my current guess is a wing coaster of some kind, second guess a Mack) and Zamperla flat package to complete Jungle X with rethemes of appropriate rides
-Front section of CAG receives a small flat package, turn Victorias into a Harmony Hall/Grand Pavilion like facility. MAYBE they turn one of the huge arcade by Racer 75 or the huge ugly games booth by the mushrooms into an empty space for a smaller coaster of some kind?
-A coaster and potential small flat package in the area with Xtreme Skyflyer, the go karts and the former location of Dinosaurs Alive
-I really want a B&M Hyper just build a 250+ huge hyper for capacity reasons (maybe?
) just put it in the very back corner of Jungle X near Reptilian.-Build a Springhill Suites where the old hotel is.
-Probably another flat package for Snoopys planet at some point
-Probably another slide tower for Soak City at some point.
No idea when or what but that would be my guess for options they may consider.
I mean, all well and good ideas there, but to me that's more about general investment into the park vs. how CF is treating the park compared to their overall portfolio.
Btw, if they build a hyper I'm guessing it'll not be next to Reptilian. The arcade building is used for Haunt and I thought someone said there's a decent amount of park operations and/or supply storage space used in the back, so I don't see them replacing it... Though with as big a pathway as it is there, maybe a relocated Corkscrew?
Soak City needs a bit more infill altogether - basically double the towers and maybe add a crazy river (similar to the one at Atlantis in the Bahamas) plus whatever crazy new thing ProSlide has dreamed up these days before it could really stand as it's own water park (alongside adding a new public parking area/entrance and putting the dry park entrance over by TT)... But that's more for a strategy of offering it as a second gate with an option for dual park tickets/passes using the dry park entrance/exit. But I fully fleshed that out in the concepts thread otherwise...
Btw, if they build a hyper I'm guessing it'll not be next to Reptilian. The arcade building is used for Haunt and I thought someone said there's a decent amount of park operations and/or supply storage space used in the back, so I don't see them replacing it... Though with as big a pathway as it is there, maybe a relocated Corkscrew?
Soak City needs a bit more infill altogether - basically double the towers and maybe add a crazy river (similar to the one at Atlantis in the Bahamas) plus whatever crazy new thing ProSlide has dreamed up these days before it could really stand as it's own water park (alongside adding a new public parking area/entrance and putting the dry park entrance over by TT)... But that's more for a strategy of offering it as a second gate with an option for dual park tickets/passes using the dry park entrance/exit. But I fully fleshed that out in the concepts thread otherwise...