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Nov 24, 2009
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smitty915 said:
I think they should keep all the lighting and fireworks(have them on a barge in the rhine river instead of fhp) scrap all the shows, and put a big imaginique-type thing in the rpt. That would be more popular imo

I couldn't agree more!!!
 
Dec 23, 2011
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smitty915 said:
I think they should keep all the lighting

I'm down with that

smitty915 said:
and fireworks(have them on a barge in the rhine river instead of fhp)

The fireworks are shot off the train bridge over the river, not in FHP. They were shot off on the Abbeystone Theater, Italy Stables, FHP, and Rhine River train bridge the first year. They scrapped the Abbeystone Theater the second year, and then this year they cut the Italy Stables and FHP displays, so it is just the train bridge over the river. That is why the San Marco bridge and Loch Ness bridge are the best views for the fireworks.

As for the barge idea, I am pretty sure they don't do that because the barge could rock back and forth causing issues, or the fireworks won't get high enough and land, still hot, all over the forests. Heck, they already land on the ground pretty hot as is in Festa and Oktoberfest.

smitty915 said:
scrap all the shows, and put a big imaginique-type thing in the rpt.

They tried that before. Kinetix was their version and it was a terrible replacement. It was very Americanized and didn't really flow with the French theme, nor did it match up to the perfectly orchestrated music and acrobatics as a real well done French cirque can.

If they tried to do it again, money would be the issue. Money was the reason why Imaginique was dropped. It was extremely amazing and had MANY full nights, the park just could not afford it, unless they were to charge separate for it, which they wouldn't do.
Their main target audience is Pass Holders. Charge anything extra and pass holders will complain. Seriously, this is the main group that visits the park. i know that maybe hard to believe, but for a person who has worked there, giving discounts, there is surprisingly a lot of people with passes.

smitty915 said:
That would be more popular imo

Popularity does not always equal success. For example, Paris Hilton is not a success, yet she is still very popular.


Overall, yes the park should just have a French cirque style show because it matches the theme perfectly and is very popular. However, there are many downfalls to that. I agree with your ideas and decisions but, I'm only pointing out why they can't happen. No offense.
 
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RocketChk

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Party Rocker said:
They tried that before. Kinetix was their version and it was a terrible replacement. It was very Americanized and didn't really flow with the French theme, nor did it match up to the perfectly orchestrated music and acrobatics as a real well done French cirque can.

Wrong. So wrong.

No way, shape, or form a 'well done French cirque.' Please tell me where you got this information from.

The only thing about Imaginique that was even close to being French is the name. Cirque Productions created Imaginique. This production only ran at BGW in its form and under that name and was created specifically for the park. The next closest thing you can get to Imaginique is the production Jungle Fantasy that came to Chrysler Hall a few years ago. They share a few acts and songs.

Cirque Productions was created and is ran by Neil Goldberg. Headquarters are in Pompano Beach, FL. Neil was born and raised in New York. I can provide sources.


Party Rocker said:
If they tried to do it again, money would be the issue. Money was the reason why Imaginique was dropped. It was extremely amazing and had MANY full nights, the park just could not afford it, unless they were to charge separate for it, which they wouldn't do.

BG had an additional three year option in their contract with Cirque Productions to continue Imaginique. Kinetix was cheaper, but not by much. The park had to create the concept, get rights to the songs, hire and contract out the performers, keep a healthy number of dancers and singers on the payroll, create, construct and maintain sets and costumes. I think Kinetix came from the park thinking that if CP would do it, BG could do it too.

Party Rocker said:
Their main target audience is Pass Holders. Charge anything extra and pass holders will complain. Seriously, this is the main group that visits the park. i know that maybe hard to believe, but for a person who has worked there, giving discounts, there is surprisingly a lot of people with passes.

I disagree. In the 80's and 90's, todays Trapper's was a Guest Relations office with a ticket booth. To watch the concert or event in the RPT, you bought tickets. Worked then, could very well work now. I'd prefer it this way. If I want to go see an event or show bad enough, it'd be nice to be in the company of others who wanted to be there just as much as I did. Case in point-Ramp Jam. When I went, there was a good sized crowd, but how many of them were as amped as I was that Bucky Lasek was at my home park? I would pay to see Ramp Jam. Also, as a passholder, I bought my pass because I enjoy going to BG--not for the events that go on during the year. If Ramp Jam did not come back next year, I'd still keep my pass. If there were upcharge events during the year, people might complain and threaten to cancel their pass, but really, honestly, how many would cancel them? Or keep them canceled? In my opinion, not many. At all.

Think back to the outrage over the shortage of Victoria Justice VIP tickets and how quickly they sold out. People were complaining not that they had to pay, but how there weren't enough available for them to pay for. At $22 a pop. On top of what they paid for a pass/ticket.



Party Rocker said:
Overall, yes the park should just have a French cirque style show because it matches the theme perfectly and is very popular. However, there are many downfalls to that. I agree with your ideas and decisions but, I'm only pointing out why they can't happen. No offense.

I don't believe it's that they can't happen, it's that the park won't allow it to happen. If something can't happen, it would have never happened in the first place. Please discuss the downfalls you mention.
 
Dec 23, 2011
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RocketChk said:
Wrong. So wrong.

No way, shape, or form a 'well done French cirque.' Please tell me where you got this information from.

The only thing about Imaginique that was even close to being French is the name. Cirque Productions created Imaginique. This production only ran at BGW in its form and under that name and was created specifically for the park. The next closest thing you can get to Imaginique is the production Jungle Fantasy that came to Chrysler Hall a few years ago. They share a few acts and songs.

Cirque Productions was created and is ran by Neil Goldberg. Headquarters are in Pompano Beach, FL. Neil was born and raised in New York. I can provide sources.

When I said a well done French cirque I was aiming more for a show that provides that feel and expertise while being very real to the nature of a French theme. Also, Imaginique's style of show is very much French. American created, yes but based off of French style. It had French music and mystic. Kinetix provided cheesy American music with acrobatics that made little to no sense with no definitive story line.

RocketChk said:
BG had an additional three year option in their contract with Cirque Productions to continue Imaginique. Kinetix was cheaper, but not by much. The park had to create the concept, get rights to the songs, hire and contract out the performers, keep a healthy number of dancers and singers on the payroll, create, construct and maintain sets and costumes. I think Kinetix came from the park thinking that if CP would do it, BG could do it too.

I highly doubt Kinetix was anywhere near as expensive as Imaginique. Kinetix had cheap and cheesy written all over it.

RocketChk said:
I disagree. In the 80's and 90's, todays Trapper's was a Guest Relations office with a ticket booth. To watch the concert or event in the RPT, you bought tickets. Worked then, could very well work now. I'd prefer it this way. If I want to go see an event or show bad enough, it'd be nice to be in the company of others who wanted to be there just as much as I did. Case in point-Ramp Jam. When I went, there was a good sized crowd, but how many of them were as amped as I was that Bucky Lasek was at my home park? I would pay to see Ramp Jam. Also, as a passholder, I bought my pass because I enjoy going to BG--not for the events that go on during the year. If Ramp Jam did not come back next year, I'd still keep my pass. If there were upcharge events during the year, people might complain and threaten to cancel their pass, but really, honestly, how many would cancel them? Or keep them canceled? In my opinion, not many. At all.

Think back to the outrage over the shortage of Victoria Justice VIP tickets and how quickly they sold out. People were complaining not that they had to pay, but how there weren't enough available for them to pay for. At $22 a pop. On top of what they paid for a pass/ticket.

The whole reason the park includes events and concerts in park admission is to make the season pass more valuable. Despite your idea that no matter what happens pass holders will remain pass holders, I would like to refer you to the all the pass holders who cancelled their pass over a Halloween show and over a train ride. Pass holders are just as ignorant as the general public.
They only demand to pay for tickets because to them is seems like a good idea and it seems like it would save them time and money; but when they start having to pay $30 extra to see a concert all hell will break loose. Just like charging extra for Christmas Town. Most pass holders hate to pay extra and can't grasp the concept of not included.
If you need further proof that pass holders do not want to pay extra for anything, please scroll down their Facebook during Concert, Howl-o-Scream, and Christmas Town.

RocketChk said:
I don't believe it's that they can't happen, it's that the park won't allow it to happen. If something can't happen, it would have never happened in the first place. Please discuss the downfalls you mention.

Yes they can't happen, do I need to say it more than once? They can't happen. Just like the Haunted Train Ride, it just can't happen! It happening in the first place just means it could happen during that time, but it can't happen during this time.

Downfalls: Imaginique was too custom and too expensive. Pass Holders want more bang for their buck, not give more bucks for more bang. People are not as willing to pay extra as you may be.

Atlantis! This! This right here is clear proof of nostalgia! People holding on to what was in the past, trying to make it fit in today! Point proven.
 

Zachary

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Party Rocker said:
The whole reason the park includes events and concerts in park admission is to make the season pass more valuable.

Pass members get 50% off tickets to special events. Would work perfectly. I've always been in favor of up-charge concerts and other such shows and whatnot (see: Ramp Jam). Right now, I'm paying for something with my pass that I'm never going to experience.

Party Rocker said:
Despite your idea that no matter what happens pass holders will remain pass holders, I would like to refer you to the all the pass holders who cancelled their pass over a Halloween show and over a train ride.

You mean all 7 of them? I think you're over-stating how many people actually cancel their passes when they say they are/will.

Party Rocker said:
Most pass holders hate to pay extra and can't grasp the concept of not included.

There will be one season of backlash and after that, everyone will forget about it. In place of free concerts and such, they can add something else (weekly ERT anyone?!).

Party Rocker said:
Downfalls: Imaginique was too custom and too expensive.

I, personally, don't see a reason or a need to up-charge for a nightly show. I simply don't buy into the idea that the park doesn't have the money. I think you're vastly underestimating the budget of IllumiNights. Spoiler: It's very expensive.
 
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netdvn

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I highly doubt Kinetix was anywhere near as expensive as Imaginique. Kinetix had cheap and cheesy written all over it.

Kinetix is doing pretty well in Tampa. Plus fireworks are included down there. I never really saw Imaginique, but I really liked Kinetix and thought it was more fun than American Jukebox (which is pretty much the same show with less confetti).

The whole reason the park includes events and concerts in park admission is to make the season pass more valuable. Despite your idea that no matter what happens pass holders will remain pass holders, I would like to refer you to the all the pass holders who cancelled their pass over a Halloween show and over a train ride. Pass holders are just as ignorant as the general public.

Exactly how many people cancelled their passes because of a show/train ride? Last I heard, 2011's HOS was one of the park's most successful despite the "apparent drop in passholders". Also, last I checked, passholders are members of the general public.
 
Dec 23, 2011
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This is how I see it, I loved Imaginique and I have always felt it to be the best show the park has ever done. Along with that, I know a lot of users feel the same way. Many users including myself have posted stating the production was simply too expensive, or maybe not the production itself but the fees payed to Niel were too expensive. Therefore the park dropped the show. This is understandable and that is why it won't return.
I am not sure of the differences between Kinetix BGW vs. BGT however, the one I saw at BGW was terrible. It was cheap, cheesy, and overall a terrible replacement for Imaginique; or at least that is how the show seemed. Al lot of members agree with that as well, I am sure.
Illuminights is definitely expensive no doubt, however I would estimate with no real knowledge the event costs right around the hundreds of thousands, where as Imaginique probably costed millions. I am talking on a per night basis, not the entire run time.
Money wise comparing them altogether, Illuminights was cheaper than Imaginique, and the was established earlier, and I believe that.

As far as pass holders are concerned, look at Christmas Town. They through a fuss and a fit because they have to pay for extra, even though they get a good admission discount, they don't like it. The main reason so any pass holders don't mind it that much is because their paying $15 admission for an entire park, almost. I know plenty of you are probably pass holders and enjoy going to the park and may not mind extra charges because you understand and realize the meaning behind it. A regular pass holder that visits the park, has lost more than half their sense and doesn't realize anything. Most of the time they forget their discounts, they forget where their discount may not apply, they just go in the park and lose their mind.
Working long hours with these guests, I have experienced a lot of upset pass holders because something is too expensive. I have asked around and the same thing keeps coming back. They are looking for more while paying less. Even though paying extra when thought through with some time, seems like a good rational idea. Where as, most would jump to saying that is more than what I had to pay in previous years.
Also, the pass itself has very little value if you take away the free events. All the pass is good for is free parking and admission with a few discounts. Yes the money saved adds up, but people are looking for the money right away. These free events are like a perk to pass holders and the BGW park offers very limited perks already.
 

netdvn

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Illuminights is definitely expensive no doubt, however I would estimate with no real knowledge the event costs right around the hundreds of thousands, where as Imaginique probably costed millions. I am talking on a per night basis, not the entire run time.

If the park was really leaking millions of dollars per night on a show, they would've dropped the show in a heartbeat, not let it last through an entire season or more.

As far as pass holders are concerned, look at Christmas Town. They through a fuss and a fit because they have to pay for extra, even though they get a good admission discount, they don't like it. The main reason so any pass holders don't mind it that much is because their paying $15 admission for an entire park, almost.
Honestly, I feel making Christmas Town a separate upcharge event isn't a good idea and the people throwing a fit have a reason to complain. HOS isn't separate, so why make CT separate? The park should include CT for people who buy annual passes/Platinum passes at least.

I have experienced a lot of upset pass holders because something is too expensive.
BGW is still a theme park. They're gonna charge a high price for their stuff regardless. Most major corporate parks will charge high prices for food/merch/etc. Busch is the exact same way.

Also, the pass itself has very little value if you take away the free events. All the pass is good for is free parking and admission with a few discounts. Yes the money saved adds up, but people are looking for the money right away. These free events are like a perk to pass holders and the BGW park offers very limited perks already.
I'm sure most corporate parks are the same way. They provide free admission, discounts, free parking, combined with free special events to keep their passholders. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel it's too expensive, work around those costs (get a Fun Card, eat outside the park, don't buy too many souvenirs, carry only essential items so you don't have to use a locker, etc).
 
Dec 23, 2011
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In general looking at Illuminights vs. Imaginique. They are both expensive, where as one has much more quality, better theme, and a better production. I am not saying Illuminights is bad, but I do prefer Imaginique. Imaginique was one of the reasons why I fell in love with the park. It was the best thing to happen at the park. I saw Kinetix and felt that it seemed to be a more cheesy version that couldn't replace Imaginique. Illuminights does a better job at replacing the show, but it still is not the same and with how they are going at this rate with Wunderbarn, I feel Illuminights will eventually end up as a bust. It has great potential now, I mean look at Giardino Magico. It is their best show, amazing lighting and performance. My point is Imaginique was better yet harder for the park to keep.

As far as passes are concerned, you missed my point in the perks. BGW doesn't give a lot of perks to their pass holders and the free special events (aka Concerts) is how they keep pass holders. The word "free" works like magic. Once people get something for free, they want to keep it. What I think you missed was the free concerts are one of the very few perks a pass holder gets, and if you take away free concerts pass holders are left with less perks making the pass lose its value.
What I meant by the "something is too expensive" was that say a Busch Gardens towel costs $5. Now say a pass holder buys said towel. Well now the park replaced said towel for a $10 towel. That previous pass holder wants to buy another towel but they complain that it costs too much when they know it should really only be $5. They get upset about that and it reduces the pass holders attitude.
I think Christmas Town should be included too. Let's be honest though, if they want Christmas Town added to the pass but they want to pay for concerts, and if the park listened and did just that, they would complain concerts should be free too. I think it is nice enough for the park to add all special events to the pass for free so if you enjoy it, you can do that. What would be ideal for the park is if they created a new way of selecting a pass, where you can pick and choose what special events you want included and what ones you don't want included. Personalizing your pass would increase the value and please more people.
 

netdvn

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Illuminights does a better job at replacing the show, but it still is not the same and with how they are going at this rate with Wunderbarn, I feel Illuminights will eventually end up as a bust. It has great potential now, I mean look at Giardino Magico. It is their best show, amazing lighting and performance. My point is Imaginique was better yet harder for the park to keep.

I never really cared for Illuminights personally. Unlike most people, I did like the Europop that plays over the speakers, but the shows were OK at best and the added decorations looked tacky.

Kinetix was good. I liked sitting down and watching it after riding Griffon. It's not the best show ever, but it was fun and had good music/acrobatics.

Like I said, if Imaginique really had a million dollar budget each night (which is way too expensive to begin with - why would the park make a financial decision like that???), I'm not surprised that the park dropped it.

As far as passes are concerned, you missed my point in the perks. BGW doesn't give a lot of perks to their pass holders and the free special events (aka Concerts) is how they keep pass holders.

The park offers typical perks that most other theme parks around the country provide. The park already holds concerts, passholder events, discounts on food/merch, free parking, etc. Not to mention cool events like Ramp Jam, NASA Day, and most definitely HOS. What more do you really want? The only thing the park needs to include is Christmas Town.

What I meant by the "something is too expensive" was that say a Busch Gardens towel costs $5. Now say a pass holder buys said towel. Well now the park replaced said towel for a $10 towel. That previous pass holder wants to buy another towel but they complain that it costs too much when they know it should really only be $5. They get upset about that and it reduces the pass holders attitude.

You're at a theme park. Prices are gonna be higher and increases are gonna happen. Look at season pass prices year after year! Hell look at season pass prices at other parks. Notice they go up each year. Even outside of theme parks, price increases are common. If you wanna buy a cheap towel, go to the outlet mall or something, not a theme park.

Let's be honest though, if they want Christmas Town added to the pass but they want to pay for concerts, and if the park listened and did just that, they would complain concerts should be free too. I think it is nice enough for the park to add all special events to the pass for free so if you enjoy it, you can do that. What would be ideal for the park is if they created a new way of selecting a pass

1) I've never heard of anyone wanting to pay money for a concert when free options are available. In-park concerts are already included with park admission anyway. That being said, concerts at an actual venue are pretty expensive too.

2) Annual passes are called annual for a reason. They should last the entire year, not just for the season. They're not "Annual, but really only lasts through October" passes, they're year-round passes. BGW needs to make the annual passes actually last the entire year. Same with Platinum passes, which are already the most expensive option out there. Those people should be able to get into CT for free.
 
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