Bürgermeister's Hideaway Speakeasy Debuting July 20th

[halfabee]

I have been visiting the park since 1986. Literally not one time have I ever gone to the Festhaus by boarding the train at Tweedside or Festa, riding it around the park and straight PAST the Festhaus, disembarking a handful of minutes later in a totally different corner of the park next to the scrambler/prior structures in that corner, and then backtracking on foot through basically the full breadth of three hamlets to the same building I rode within probably 50 feet of several minutes earlier.

If you just like the scenic journey and find that subsequent walk invigorating, great. I love walking and wouldn’t mind it myself, aside from the plainly obvious waste of time and effort it represents in this particular theoretical. But as a means to specifically and time-efficiently go to the Festhaus it makes little sense.

And that’s the point, really: the train and sky ride both serve Oktoberfest pretty poorly. BGW gets everyone of all ages and mobilities, and people also just get tired of walking during the course of the day. I have experienced firsthand what it means to arrive at the park with even just one such person in your party and with BGW’s flagship eatery in mind. It can be a hassle, plain and simple.

The train is, for many, a transportation service, not merely a scenic journey, and as such it really ought to serve Oktoberfest directly. That it doesn’t is a shame and a missed opportunity. Appreciating this is an exercise in empathy and understanding for others, not just asking “What works for me in my own personal experience?”

Add to that the fact that if currently visible construction efforts, leaked plans for further major construction, and submitted testing documents for what may well be even more major construction are to be believed, Oktoberfest has become the singular nexus of attendance-driving attraction additions for the foreseeable future at BGW. All in the corner of the park that is quite arguably worst served by transportation from the front of the park, the front being the one and only part of BGW every single guest is guaranteed to pass through a bare minimum of once per visit, and BGW being a park that deliberately draws the entire family (despite recent attraction trends).

Framing that as “What’s wrong with walking?” just makes me ask in return, “What’s wrong with understanding people who aren’t like us and providing them with materially better options?”

 

[warfelg]

I think the question more shouldn't be is it flat enough, but rather is making it flat enough going to effect the incline from Festhaus to Carabu too steep. A 4% grade is what a high speed rail can handle, 1.5% is what freight can handle. You can't make Italia to Festhaus much more inclined because then you go back to effecting the bridge, which wouldn't be smart.

 

[halfabee]

I’m not sure if any phone apps are reliable enough to detect truly slight grades over perhaps 100’ long stretches. I suspect not. But if so, the stretch directly behind Festhaus would be the place to put that to use.

Or are there topo maps with sufficient accuracy? I do recall topo being web-available for the park. I should go and find that.

Edit: Yes there is topo spot data. It implicitly claims decimal-point accuracy. Even if it’s just accurate to the nearest integer… looks pretty flat behind Festhaus.

Spot Elevation

The information displayed is a compilation of records, information, and data obtained from various sources, and James City County is not responsible for its accuracy or how current it may be.If discrepancies are found, please contact JCC Mapping.

opendata-jcc.opendata.arcgis.com

Someone please move all of this stuff to the railroad thread. 😬

 

[Coasternerd]

Back on topic:

I will be trying out this location either tomorrow or Thursday. Still determining if I can make it tomorrow lol

Will post a review

 

[Celticdog]

.... This candy shop has been shuttered for years anyway so it’s not like it’s a loss for us. ....

But this is an actual loss for us. BG spends time and money to get this location operational, while ignoring the basic maintenance needs throughout the park. Directly across the walkway the Christmas shop is missing floor tiles and has peeling/damaged baseboards/trim. The ice machine has been non-functional at Marco Polo for almost two weeks. Several bathrooms have non-operational hand dryers and faucets.

 

[mikes]

How about no more comments on this until the first reviews come in.

 

[Ice]

Imagine if that mentality was applied to the Pantheon thread

 

[BGWnut]

Who’s to say everything available will be premixed frozen drinks?

Also as someone that was a bartender for a while, you can absolutely turn a frozen drink into a flair, especially if you mix, then add ice, then blend.

Based on everything that people who give good information (@horsesboy and @BGWnut) it seems as though these assumptions being made miss the mark on what it’s going to be.

My understanding is that while parts of the drinks will be pre made, you will see them actually finish your drinks in front of you. This includes blending them and other stuff in front of you. This sort of stuff is fairly common at bars where they have a mix already made and then they just add certain things when ordered.

My grievance is with the concept execution itself, and I do not need to experience it to know that the way the speakeasy concept was implemented was a poor decision. The show could be fantastic, the drinks could be fantastic, everything could be the best experience they ever made, but fundamentally the thing doesn't work for their ideal target audience; locals who need a reason to stop by the park a few times a month and buy a drink or meal here and there.

This is very much a "I did it, I enjoyed it, don't feel the need to do it again" type experience when you consider the price tag and time required for it. This is an endeavor that requires booking in advance, fronting around $100, and committing the time to show up for the entire experience. This is not something where locals who know about it can stop in for a drink, talk to the bartender, spend $20 and maybe have a snack on the way in or out of the park to walk all the way back there. That's my problem with it, this isn't gonna work in the long term and the experience is only going to decay as management sees fewer and fewer dollars coming in from it. Give it a couple years and this is just gonna turn back into another building just sitting there, closed.

They had the opportunity to make something that doesn't see HUGE dollars right when they open it but will self sustain forever and help stimulate sales elsewhere by bringing in more locals more consistently, but instead their tunnel vision onto margins on a spreadsheet produced this, and will ultimately be a long term financial failure as well as guest experience failure.

My grievance is time and time again SEAS has no idea how to run a long term successful business, and we keep seeing symptoms of it. Here is yet another. It simply doesn't matter how great of a job those in the building do at executing it come opening, it is a bad version of an overall good idea. I'll enjoy doing it the next time I go to the park. But it'll be a very long time before I make the commitment to do it again, no matter how good it is.

People seem to be misunderstanding me. I agree that this speakeasy they have made isn't targeting locals, it is in fact targeting people there all day who want an experience. My point is I think that is who they continue to target with everything they are doing and will pay the price, and this particular experience was a golden opportunity to throw the locals a bone, an audience they have been shafting for years now. Hence why I think this is a failure compared to what it could've been for a diminishing portion of their guests, of which I am not even a part of. This is a win for consumers like me, but I know this park's wellbeing doesn't survive off people like me.

The diminishing portion of their guests is the locals, so yes it does make sense to reinvest to reinvigorate that guest base. This doesn't reinvigorate the locals, that is my point.

They wouldn't, I also never made that claim. "Dollars in" doesn't determine the long term success of a business either, because "dollars in" now don't forecast "dollars in" the future, so simply making that connection that "more sales on extras = more beneficial to business long term" is false. My stance isn't based on sales of extras, it is based on long term guest retention. Eventually the pool of new people traveling in runs dry, just a matter of time.

Also as @halfabee pointed out there are quite a few extras, so honestly I wonder at what point the market for extras for someone traveling for a one or two day trip just becomes so saturated that the spending is too thinly split amongst the experiences. Would be interesting to see where that happens.

I think that your argument fall apart when you say that they should have made something for locals. Locals are not as significant a portion of their business as you think they are. They are important, but the park can't sustain just on visits from passmembers. They need to convince people who might just come once a year to come back again.

Also, the park does a lot of things directly targeted at locals already and they are pretty successful based. Products like the Stein and Pint clubs are meant for locals and they are very successful programs. Also, locals come back repeatedly for their member rewards each month. From an outside perspective this is successful. Just look at how often they bring back the $10 rewards for us to spend. If they weren't popular or moving the needle then they would have stopped.


The bottom line is that you don't like this particular implementation, which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, I disagree that they didn't make the most appropriate business decision. SEAS has a lot more data on what their consumers actually want than we do. Based on their recent string of quarterly earnings results their decisions have been successful. To argue that they repeatedly make bad decisions would be to ignore the evidence.

 

[WDWRLD]

I like it……”we shouldn’t judge it until opening day and we see exactly what it is”.

Then on opening day we will see…..”it’s their first day so we shouldn’t judge them because they are still working out the kinks”

Then it will be…..”they’ve only been open a week and they are still tweaking the show”

Then don’t forget the “staffing issues and supply chain shortages”

 

[Ice]

I think that your argument fall apart when you say that they should have made something for locals. Locals are not as significant a portion of their business as you think they are. They are important, but the park can't sustain just on visits from passmembers. They need to convince people who might just come once a year to come back again.

My reasoning on why I think something for locals is desperately needed is because they are the group that has not gotten anything to appeal to them in a long time. Almost every recent addition has improved things for the same demographic they target with this addition, so I don't get it. I see them as already being successful in bringing in this addition's target demographic, and the financial reasoning behind this is not necessarily to bring more of those people in but to further capitalize on the amount they are bringing in already. The second those people this appeals to starts to taper off, this thing will be in trouble.

Also, the park does a lot of things directly targeted at locals already and they are pretty successful based. Products like the Stein and Pint clubs are meant for locals and they are very successful programs. Also, locals come back repeatedly for their member rewards each month. From an outside perspective this is successful. Just look at how often they bring back the $10 rewards for us to spend. If they weren't popular or moving the needle then they would have stopped.

This would have been a good opportunity to expand that successful stein/pint club to another group, those maybe who do not like beer. An equivalent version for cocktails / hard liquor. I think they are doing more than enough to convince people coming once a year to come back again (seasonal events, short term promotions, seasonal experiences, ticket pairings with Water Country, etc.), and I don't think adding on another upcharge experience actually convinces someone who comes once a year to come again. It purely further capitalizes on those who are there and want something more to do, as nobody is booking a trip to BGW to spend another $100 on a drink tasting and show.

The bottom line is that you don't like this particular implementation, which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, I disagree that they didn't make the most appropriate business decision. SEAS has a lot more data on what their consumers actually want than we do. Based on their recent string of quarterly earnings results their decisions have been successful. To argue that they repeatedly make bad decisions would be to ignore the evidence.

I don't understand why me thinking this was a bad decision in the long term is being conflated with me not liking it by multiple people. I said before and I'll say it again, this addition is beneficial to consumers like me who go 2 or 3 times a year and like having new things to do, so I am excited to try it. I just know after I do it once, it'll be a while before I do it again, and I see that as an issue long term for the park given my theory that the high volume of newcomers recently is going to start dwindling down in the coming years. As far as the recent string of quarterly earnings, I have addressed that logic multiple times. Using the logic of "well we are making money now so what we are doing must be right" has proven fatal for many businesses. I think they have shuttled their priorities so heavily towards what is making them money now that they are screwing themselves in the long term the second they struggle to get those newcomers / one or two timers trying to catch a sweet deal in the gates, since those people are very reliant on market conditions. Locals are the safety net, and it is concerning me how much they seem to be ignoring the voice of those who desire a higher quality customer experience worth going to many times a year.

So I am not ignoring the evidence, I am taking into consideration the evidence heavily. To say that arguing they are making wrong decisions is the same as ignoring the evidence is ridiculous, as my claims based on the volatility of the business model they are targeting would only be possible with knowledge of the "evidence" you allude to. They are seeing extreme success financially with what they are doing, and are doubling down on it. I think this is dangerous, though I tend to be more conservative on a business operations side. They are operating with a much higher risk than I would, and I guess we will see how that pays off in a few years.

It is totally reasonable to disagree with my opinion of the dangers of how they have been changing their operational model to appeal more towards the all-day park goer who travels, but to try to undersell everything I have said by making it seem like it is coming from a place of ignorance or personal distaste for the product is rather dismissive.

 

[warfelg]

Let the eye rolling commence, but stuff like that is a maintenance budget issue.

Now is it fair to say that SEAS needs to absolutely up their maintenance budget? Hell yes.

But whatever departments budget this is coming from, to me, has little to do with that other stuff.

Now do I think SEAS has its priorities wrong? Yes. But using this and the maintenance isn’t a great thing. I think the Cap Ex of a new ride (DS) and subsequent loan payments (long term budget impacts) is a bigger problem than an up charge experience.

I really wish fixing the park and not adding anything would get it done. Last time I was there I saw plenty that needed attention. But doing that is expense with little return. This is an expense with a potentially bigger return.

 

[Nicole]

 

[warfelg]

The bottom line is that you don't like this particular implementation, which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, I disagree that they didn't make the most appropriate business decision. SEAS has a lot more data on what their consumers actually want than we do. Based on their recent string of quarterly earnings results their decisions have been successful. To argue that they repeatedly make bad decisions would be to ignore the evidence.

I can add this as someone that’s now an out of town visitor:

While I want them to fix all the little things, it’s not bringing me back. When I was local I wanted it so the park looked clean. But from further away, a cracked tile getting fixed doesn’t change it.

Yes I still want that fixed.

But, what will bring me back on a trip is this, Pantheon, and DarKoaster opening. That’s worth a trip.

Now will those other things not being fixed when I visit make or break a quicker return….that’s to be seen.

But I don’t get why people who love the park think one group is more important than the other. All parks need both to survive.

 

[Murphy]

Excited to see initial thoughts, good or bad!

 

[GoHokies87]

You can tell by the 2D graphic "Candy Shop" that all the theming budget is (thankfully) being saved for Darkoaster.

 

[Ice]

Just wait until we get Fatheads of Ludwig at the Darkoaster exit, brand-name stuff right there

 

[Zachary]

The new authentic German name printed above the new entrance is süßigkeiten which Google says translates to "Sweets."

 

[warfelg]

The new authentic German name printed above the new entrance is süßigkeiten which Google says translates to "Sweets."

That interior picture.



*chefs kiss*

 

[Ice]

Duncan McTavish easter egg is fantastic

 

[warfelg]

Sorry to be posting these over @Zachary and @Nicole and @Gavin but I’m so impressed with that I’m seeing!!