News Project 2019: Tigris (Premier SkyRocket II)

[Zachary]

RE: BGT Project 2019

We have seen many amusement parks in typical amusement park environments do very well with the addition of a RMC.

That said, we have seen many amusement parks in typical amusement park environments do very well with the addition of a B&M Hyper as well.

Yet, for some reason, that formula did not work in Florida. I think it is fair to attribute that to the anything-but-normal park environment in the state.

Honestly, SEAS got themselves into this mess in Florida by trying to shoehorn typical amusement park ideas into the state. When their competitors were buying IP and building detailed dark rides, SEAS stuck to coasters. Now the chain is up a creek without a paddle in the state—unable to fund the construction of actually competitive attractions. Even when they stretch their budget to the max the additions they can muster don't even manage to bail a year's worth of new water out of their sinking ships.

I honestly believe that, at this point, SEAS has squarely lost Florida. They can maintain amusement parks in the state for locals, but I have an incredibly hard time seeing a real path to success for the chain in the state at this point.

 

[warfelg]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I'll add that the idea of what SEAS was going for was great pre-IOA too. That's when Universal kinda looked at them and said "We'll do it better" IMO. Universal becoming a 2 day (now three day) minimum whit SEAS. Before when Universal had the one gate, if you were going to be in the Orlando area and not go to Disney, Sea World made a great stop. But that case really isn't all that relevant anymore.

And now Universal is talking opening a 4th gate, Dragon Challenge (RIP) is becoming a better option. Disney has Toy Story Land, Star Wars Galaxy's Edge, Tron, GotG.

BGT and SWO just can't sustain being the key parks for investment IMO anymore. They can't. They are massively overshadowed.

The 2-3 best rumors for BGT are a Skyrocket II (Twisted Tiger); Move Kraken's VR onto Kumba (Kumba: Uproar); and transform the area behind Gwazi into a kids/Australia area. All relatively inexpensive ways to inject some life into the park without the possibility of a huge sunken cost.

Sounds boring, but sometimes boring at a park like BGT is what's needed.

 

[musicman3204]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I'm really leaning towards Skyrocket II, as well. I was at Tampa this past February and both myself and partner commented that Gwazi was sad but wasn't in your face AS MUCH AS tidal wave was. This looks HORRIBLE. It makes a lot of financial sense to build this ride so you can capex the removal of tidal wave. Kills two birds with one stone. It would really fill out this area of the park. I have personally felt its always been a real dead zone even with tidal wave was open.

I'm in the Skyrocket II camp as well right now. I'd love to see RMC Gwazi, but I think it's doubtful given the investment we've seen from SEAS lately.

I saw Coaster-net reporting that Busch Gardens Tampa dropped 1% in attendance the year they opened Cobra's Curse and SeaWorld Orlando's attendance dropped 6% the year they opened Mako. I imagine this has to tell SEAS that coasters won't bring the attendance spikes they need at these properties to continue big reinvestment.

Zachary, I read on the GBAA report from TEA that the declines were even steeper than that. I'd be interested to know where coaster-net received their information from and learn why a potential discrepancies could exist. I've always used the report I referenced to gage attendance, so I'm eager to learn other potential reporting sources (other than SEAS annual reports). Just as a reference, here is the link for the GBAA: http://www.teaconnect.org/images/files/TEA_235_103719_170601.pdf

Personally, I feel like Cobra's Curse should have addressed Gwazi, rather than squeeze it in beside of Montu. Now that I have experienced it, I'm ok with the placement. Personally, I think if you have to render a ride SBNO, then the next capex should address this to avoid any "reputations."

 

[Zachary]

RE: BGT Project 2019

Thanks for linking the report. I generally reference TEA/AECOM's reports as well but was just lazily regurgitating the numbers I thought I remembered from someone else's commentary.

According to the TEA/AECOM report, it looks like SWO was down 7.9% and BGT was down 2% in 2016.

 

[Mushroom]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I'm a bit late, but this.

It's possible that even huge new attraction additions from SWO and BGT simply pale in relevance compared to those being added to the other parks in the area and, hence, don't make any financial sense for those properties.

And this.

Honestly, SEAS got themselves into this mess in Florida by trying to shoehorn typical amusement park ideas into the state. When their competitors were buying IP and building detailed dark rides, SEAS stuck to coasters. Now the chain is up a creek without a paddle in the state—unable to fund the construction of actually competitive attractions. Even when they stretch their budget to the max the additions they can muster don't even manage to bail a year's worth of new water out of their sinking ships.

SWO and BGT are in a particularly treacherous market for SEAS because of the competition they get from Disney and Universal. We had to cut SeaWorld from my upcoming trip to Orlando because its new additions since my last visit (a B&M hyper and a rapids ride) just aren't worth my limited time compared to the unique new experiences available elsewhere nearby (Pandora, Frozen Ever After, Skull Island, Race Through New York, etc.).

SEAS seems content to operate SeaWorld and BGT as typical amusement parks, with their animals as the sole distinguishing factor. Especially as it has become clear that the zoological aspect of theme parks doesn't have the same draw as it used to, I don't think SEAS can continue to successfully operate their Florida parks like regional parks. I don't think the animal rights activists and Blackfish are the primary reason for SeaWorld and BGT struggling so much. It's just that when their competitors right down the road are constructing immersive themed worlds and cutting-edge experiences, blowing a fortune on standard amusement rides isn't going to cut it.

 

[----------------------]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I'm just going to say, as someone who lives in Florida, I think a lot of the converstation on how the parks operate and get compared in this thread is way off. I don't have the time to type out a long response just yet, but I can say that BGT has it's own distinct slice of the pie and that doesn't need to compete with the big disney/uni parks.

 

[Zachary]

RE: BGT Project 2019

Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely agree that BGT in particular will always play host to a dedicated local audience. Unfortunately, it is a park that has always operated with a budget that far exceeds what is typical for a park of that kind (read: regional).

There was a time not long ago when SeaWorld Orlando and Busch Gardens Tampa aimed to be one step below Disney and Universal. In this day and age though, I'd argue that SEAS doesn't even contend on the same staircase anymore. Honestly, I don't even know that the SEAS parks have a real chance at competing against Legoland for non-regional guests now.

 

[Franco]

RE: BGT Project 2019

SEAS seems content to operate SeaWorld and BGT as typical amusement parks, with their animals as the sole  distinguishing factor. Especially as it has become clear that the zoological aspect of theme parks doesn't have the same draw as it used to, I don't think SEAS can continue to successfully operate their Florida parks like regional parks. I don't think the animal rights activists and Blackfish are the primary reason for SeaWorld and BGT struggling so much. It's just that when their competitors right down the road are constructing immersive themed worlds and cutting-edge experiences, blowing a fortune on standard amusement rides isn't going to cut it.

I don't think the Blackfish backlash has everything to do with the struggle of these parks, but as you admit, the distinguishing factor they were going for with their parks is the very same thing that is causing at the least a very vocal minority to turn on them and denigrate their reputation.  That has a huge effect.  Not only is this movement relegating them to a more typical amusement park stature (which is what SEAS pretty much has to aim for now, not what I believe it always wanted to), it's actively driving some people away.  I agree with what sunchild said; when I lived in Florida there was definitely a market for these parks, but it just isn't the one that SEAS used to shoot for.

 

[SLC Headache]

RE: BGT Project 2019

Now that Disney and Universal are getting more into the coaster business, the remaining parks in the area are doing everything else in comparison to what those two do.  It's not like the Central Va, where CF finds out BGW is getting a good GCI; so you have to one up them with a RMC.

I have the feeling that InvadR was a reaction to KD's "Really More Coming", which was in turn a preemptive strike against SFA in the race for Mid-Atlantic's first RMC. SFDK got the RMC'd Roar instead of SFA, leaving them open to KD RMC'ing their Hurler.

 

[Zimmy]

RE: BGT Project 2019

there is something to be said for BGW overspending on Ent and on Bolt during a down market based on prior experience in a bubble market. In the mid 90's unless you were under a rock you could not help but make money in the market and in the early aughts if you owned property it was like you hit the jackpot. People thought they had money to spend. Certainly at first it was okay, but it was not until they started spending the big $$s (I'm looking at you Germany) that things went sideways and the market still had not recovered.

I really wonder how the folly of the days of "if we build it they will come" had a lasting impact. Its hard to walk back from a 50m dollar buy and we will likely never know what the actual cost of Scott's various ego trips cost.

 

[Nicole]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I have the feeling that InvadR was a reaction to KD's "Really More Coming", which was in turn a preemptive strike against SFA in the race for Mid-Atlantic's first RMC. SFDK got the RMC'd Roar instead of SFA, leaving them open to KD RMC'ing their Hurler.

I’m very glad Roar has not been RMCed, and I hope they don’t in the future. Also, I see no evidence that InvadR was built because of TT.

 

[SLC Headache]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I have the feeling that InvadR was a reaction to KD's "Really More Coming", which was in turn a preemptive strike against SFA in the race for Mid-Atlantic's first RMC. SFDK got the RMC'd Roar instead of SFA, leaving them open to KD RMC'ing their Hurler.

I’m very glad Roar has not been RMCed, and I hope they don’t in the future.  Also, I see no evidence that InvadR was built because of TT.

Did SFA start taking better care of Roar after SFDK got theirs RMC'd? I heard it wasn't very good at the start of this decade.

Even if InvadR and TT were unrelated, it was great timing for BGW.

 

[Nicole]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I honestly don’t see what SFA maintenance has to do with a RMC at SFDK. Regardless, this discussion seems much too far removed from a project at BGT, and is probably getting us off-topic.

Feel free to raise these questions in the appropriate threads.

 

[Unagi]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I have the feeling that InvadR was a reaction to KD's "Really More Coming",

Nope! The last time BGW ever reacted to any new KD attraction happened 26 years ago when they installed Drachen Fire after KD opened Anaconda.

which was in turn a preemptive strike against SFA in the race for Mid-Atlantic's first RMC. SFDK got the RMC'd Roar instead of SFA, leaving them open to KD RMC'ing their Hurler.

Nope again.

 

[Zimmy]

RE: BGT Project 2019

Nope! The last time BGW ever reacted to any new KD attraction happened 26 years ago when they installed Drachen Fire after KD opened Anaconda.

Has it really been 26 years? Good god.

 

[Zachary]

RE: BGT Project 2019

This discussion seems much too far removed from a project at BGT, and is probably getting us off-topic.

Feel free to raise these questions in the appropriate threads.

 

[warfelg]

RE: BGT Project 2019

I don't think the Blackfish backlash has everything to do with the struggle of these parks, but as you admit, the distinguishing factor they were going for with their parks is the very same thing that is causing at the least a very vocal minority to turn on them and denigrate their reputation.  That has a huge effect.  Not only is this movement relegating them to a more typical amusement park stature (which is what SEAS pretty much has to aim for now, not what I believe it always wanted to), it's actively driving some people away.  I agree with what sunchild said; when I lived in Florida there was definitely a market for these parks, but it just isn't the one that SEAS used to shoot for.

I think a lot of us would admit that Blackfish isn't the sole reason, but it's part of the reason and it's the most public reason. IMO general public don't look at the who corporate ownership and structure and what happened.

As for the market thing; lost of us are talking about from being outside the state. I got family inside the state; and they all say they prefer BGT and SWO due to the lower crowd sizes and lack of tourists. But that's not going to do enough to change the tides for those two parks. Hyper coasters are almost everywhere, so when SWO built Mako I don't think the draw was there from outside the area because other than a credit for enthusiasts, why should I plan to go when I can spend far less for a local park?

That's what's so hard about the Orlando/Tampa Market for parks. You have to do something that you really can't experience anywhere else to get a draw. And SEAS just doesn't have the money to pull that off right now.

Bringing this full circle:
I think that's why a RMC of Gwazi isn't in the cards. The investment is too high of the reach that it will have. But a SkyrocketII is cost effective and would still have the same reach. Things like that is how SEAS will be able to pull themselves out of the hole they are in. IMO the SBNO rides at BGT are expensive to take down, but with nothing to take it's place and no reason to remove them, SEAS doesn't see a reason to spend money on that. The downside is the longer something is SBNO the less likely it is for it to ever be refurbished.

 

[netdvn]

RE: BGT Project 2019

Orlando is a hella competitive market and the way I see it, Sea World is trying too hard to play catch up with Disney/Uni.

Blackfish definitely had a huge factor in Sea World's diminishing crowds. I was there two weeks ago when all the other Orlando parks were reaching insane crowd levels thanks to Spring Break. SWO was pretty dead outside of Antarctica and JTA (this was a day when even Fun Spot was crowded). Flash forward a week later when I went to BGT and both Kumba and Montu were pulling hour+ waits, which is exceptionally rare for the park.

I feel the Busch parks down here should concentrate on attracting locals more than trying to be a destination resort like Disney or Universal. More money pumped into special events, lower gate prices, maybe a deal with Fun Spot to get admission there after park close etc. Throw Tampa a bone or two instead of shuttering attractions left and right and leaving them to rot with no replacement. Maybe even use lower crowd levels as a perk to getting a pass to the parks.

 

[tursiops]

RE: BGT Project 2019

Blackfish hurt a lot. Universal growing and evolving hurt them a lot. InBev buying AB killed them. This is by far the biggest factor. They never had to worry about finances the same way before that. Also AB could have snuffed the blackfish stuff straight out the gate with their massive influence.

 

[Zimmy]

RE: BGT Project 2019

Blackfish hurt a lot. Universal growing and evolving hurt them a lot. InBev buying AB killed them. This is by far the biggest factor. They never had to worry about finances the same way before that. Also AB could have snuffed the blackfish stuff straight out the gate with their massive influence.

Not to be argumentative, but do you have any data to back this assumption up?  No doubt Blackfish had an impact, but when considering the "4 Whys" the biggest drop was before Blackfish.  Also, I do not see any evidence that AB could have stopped it.  In fact for the same reasons that they sold themselves off it seems likely that they would not have had the needed influence.  Their finances and leadership were in disarray.